traction battery drawing 1.5kw at 70mph while in neutral, less at slower speeds

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estomax

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 20, 2017
Messages
326
Location
Seattle
Hey Guys,

Has anyone noticed why the traction battery draws about 1.5kw of power at 70mph, tapering down to about 300w at zero pretty linearly (via leafspy)? The 300w matches what the leaf power consumption (other devices) screen shows, but at speed, the traction battery according to leafspy is drawing a lot more, while the screen still shows 300w. What is this power being used for? Again i had the car in neutral and hvac off during this test.

Marko
 
Hey Guys,

Has anyone noticed why the traction battery draws about 1.5kw of power at 70mph, tapering down to about 300w at zero pretty linearly (via leafspy)? The 300w matches what the leaf power consumption (other devices) screen shows, but at speed, the traction battery according to leafspy is drawing a lot more, while the screen still shows 300w. What is this power being used for? Again i had the car in neutral and hvac off during this test.

Marko

You're saying that the traction battery is DRAWING (consuming?) power?! That would have to be regenerative braking, surely? Where else would the power come from.

Or did you mean to say that the the battery is SUPPLYING this current (ie something else in the vehicle is drawing it and you're trying to determine what)?
 
something else is drawing power, this is not regen because the car was in neutral, sorry for the terminology mixup. And wierdly enough that power getting pulled from the traction battery scales with speed. The only thing i can think of is the motor spinning in neutral is still consuming some power to maintain its electric field or something, getting too technical for me at that nitty gritty level though to understand.
 
something else is drawing power, this is not regen because the car was in neutral, sorry for the terminology mixup. And wierdly enough that power getting pulled from the traction battery scales with speed. The only thing i can think of is the motor spinning in neutral is still consuming some power to maintain its electric field or something, getting too technical for me at that nitty gritty level though to understand.
Hmm! Good thought on the exciters remaining energised - that could explain it and I can't think what else would be correlated with speed. You need to see if another Leaf does the same thing :) Is your Leaf a ZE0, an AZE0 or a ZE1?
 
Hey Guys,

Has anyone noticed why the traction battery draws about 1.5kw of power at 70mph, tapering down to about 300w at zero pretty linearly (via leafspy)? The 300w matches what the leaf power consumption (other devices) screen shows, but at speed, the traction battery according to leafspy is drawing a lot more, while the screen still shows 300w. What is this power being used for? Again i had the car in neutral and hvac off during this test.

Marko
Well energy is neither created nor destroyed, so if the motors and other sundries aren’t using it something is getting real hot. As you go faster there is more wind resistance though so power use goes up. I recall a bomber in the 70’s called the Valkyrie or something that had stainless steel honeycomb on the leading edges of its wing because air friction got so high. This is why the model T only did 45mph. Faster than that and it quickly gets ruinous
 
Could it be some transitory aux load for battery cool down? You need to find a long hill to coast on to see if it truly is speed or time related.
 
First i gotta ask why you are doing this--are you trying to break something?

At 70mph the forces acting on the car require about 20 hp of power in order to maintain that speed, which is 15kW with a current of 42Amp @360VDC pack.

When you shift into N then you have interrupted this current flow which could cause a huge inductive voltage spike if it was not managed and handled gracefully.

The motor and gearbox are always engaged so the motor is being backdriven thru the transmission while coasting. The magnets in the motor generate a voltage in the windings when it is spinning, and this too must be gracefully managed to prevent damage, normally this is regeneration energy that can be put back into the pack.

The 1.2kW is just a very little bit of power, about 3 Amps @360VDC pack, going to the drive inverter to energize the windings to maintain and balance the motor spinning at the same speed it is being back-driven. If not then the car speed would be quickly dragged down by the regen.

The other 300W is the supply to the DCDC converter which is always powered up in READY.
 
1.2kw is almost 10% of the available power in my pack over the course of an hour (75% soh 24kwh pack), so I would disagree with your 'very little bit of power' statement. I was toying around while coasting down a long hill on the interstate if you must know the reason. I found a thread from 2013 discussing this same thing, so this has been noted and discussed before too, but no good conclusion came from there.

I figured the power is something to do with the inverter managing the EMF in the windings, no matter what it is always spinning as you said due to the direct connection and I was curious if anyone has accurate info about what this power is being used for. I guess what surprised me is that it takes this much power to keep the motor synchronized while not applying tractive force.

And yes, generally I don't use N as i can just manipulate the power to 0 with my foot if i am trying to coast for a longer period.
 
1.2kW is not equal to 1.2kWh.

1.2kWh is a lot of energy, but 1.2kW is not a lot of power (only about 3 Amps)

The car is smart enough to know how to handle it if you want to coast down hills in N, i do it all the time.

If it took 30 seconds to coast down from 70 to 0, then it was using 0.005kWh from your pack's energy.
 
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Neutral is a command to the inverter, so no significant inductive spikes should be generated. The inverter is always turning phases of the motor on positive then off then on negative then off...

A moving magnetic field in iron will cause "hysteresis losses" and "eddy current losses". As the rotor is a permanent magnet, and as the rotor is always rotating when the car is moving, there will be losses. Either the inverter can rotate the field or the motor's permanent magnet will cause drag while rotating the field. In either case the loss would be proportional to speed.
 
Neutral is a command to the inverter, so no significant inductive spikes should be generated. The inverter is always turning phases of the motor on positive then off then on negative then off...

A moving magnetic field in iron will cause "hysteresis losses" and "eddy current losses". As the rotor is a permanent magnet, and as the rotor is always rotating when the car is moving, there will be losses. Either the inverter can rotate the field or the motor's permanent magnet will cause drag while rotating the field. In either case the loss would be proportional to speed.
That means the gearbox is permanently engaged, right?
 
I'd say that what the ≈1.2 kW must be doing is field weakening of the motor. 1.2 kW is around 1% of the full power of the motor, so it's considered an acceptable loss. Though of course if you're costing downhill in neutral, it's a 100% loss: zero power out for 1.2 kW in. Even in drive "gear" at 70 mph, if it's say 15 kW to maintain that speed, that's 1.2/15 = 8% loss, and there would be other losses.

At low speeds, the permanent magnet is unopposed, giving full torque up to about 40 mph (I'm not sure of the exact speed, and it likely varies from model to model). From here on, I'll pretend that this threshold speed is fixed and is exactly 40 mph. I'll assume that the motor's constants are such that without field weakening it generates around 100 V per 10 mph, and I'll take the battery voltage as 400 V, making for easy math.

To drive at 20 mph, the motor controller bucks the voltage to half (simplifying a lot here), just over half to accelerate, just under half to regenerate. But without field weakening, anything past 40 mph causes strong regeneration until the speed drops below 40 again. To drive at 50 mph, the motor controller has to do some phase shifting that effectively opposes some of the permanent magnet's field. This reduces torque, but allows for higher speed. That's effectively an electronic gearbox, in fact a Continuously Variable Transmission (CVT): you can smoothly trade torque for speed, maintaining power. Power is of course the product of speed and torque. This is the motor's so-called "constant power region".

As an aside, field weakening doesn't have to cost any real power, just like a permanent magnet can provide a magnetic field with no power input. But field weakening requires current through windings that have resistance, so in practice it costs real power. If you had a superconducting motor, in theory that loss would be zero, at least in the motor itself, ignoring the power needed to maintain superconductivity. If I'm right, this answers an earlier question: where is that power going? It would be into the coolant loop ultimately dissipating in the small EV radiator.

So at 70 mph, you have to effectively buck around 4/7th of the magnet's field, otherwise you get that uncontrolled regen again. If I'm right, that's the reason that neutral is only available in ready mode; you need the battery, contactors closed, and motor controller doing its thing to keep the back EMF of the spinning motor from pushing into the battery via the free-wheel diodes in the motor controller. That's one of the drawbacks of a permanent magnet motor: yes, you get "free" magnetic field at low speeds, but you can't turn it off and you have to buck it at higher speeds. Tesla and a few other EV manufacturers generally use induction motors, which have no permanent magnets, but they still have to do something similar for field weakening, and they need to use power at low speeds to generate any field at all.

One way to test this is to check if the drain falls linearly to about 40 mph and then stays fairly flat to a standstill. If so, that confirms my theory. However if it's a straight line all the way down to zero speed, that's a count against my theory.

So in contrast to an ICE vehicle where neutral is a fairly passive state, an EV's neutral is actually quite active. I'm guessing that if the main battery is really flat, then the car may refuse to go into neutral, and it would have to be towed with the drive wheels off the ground. In four wheel drive EVs, that may imply needing a tilt tray. It should be pushable up to 40 mph, as the back EMF would be below the battery voltage. Towing much above 40 mph with the car "off" could damage the motor controller, since the un-bucked back EMF would be more than the motor controller is designed to operate at (around maximum battery voltage). In this case, with the car off, the motor won't regenerate, but the voltage could be approaching 700 V, and the motor controller might be using 650 V IGBTs (electronic switching devices), and the capacitors might only be rated at say 450 V or 500 V.
 
I don't think that is how it works. The motor is a three phase motor, and the speed is determined by frequency, torque is somewhat determined by current, which is a factor of the impedance in the winding at that time and the voltage applied to it.
 
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