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GRA said:
Our objections are based on real world issues which have caused numerous accidents, and which have been extensively researched and documented.
Click to expand...
I know of people who crib about Model S touchscreen being distracting who extensively use smartphones when driving.

Solution to all this is voice commands.
 
EatsShootsandLeafs said:
EVDriver what don't you like at all that would make you consider bailing on your M3 reservation?
Click to expand...
For me it will be how much I really like the way it handles when I drive it and how much the touchscreen-only interface detracts from the car. There is the all important factor of how comfortable the seats are. Finally, there is the WAF (wife acceptance factor).

Four years ago I went to buy an EV and a MS was my first choice. But when my wife (5'0" tall) sat in the drivers seat, the shoulder belt went across her neck and she hated it. No MS for us.

2 years ago when we went to replace the minivan, I tried for a MS (for her) again. Once again, the shoulder belt made it a non-starter. We got an CRV instead :oops:. At the time, the MX was not in the running because of the price (but also because of the doors: I didn't think they'd be reliable).

Last fall with the announcement of the end of unlimited SC, I tried for a MS again. This time they'd redesigned the seats and the shoulder belt no longer was an issue. 4 months and 7500 miles later things are still going well. (even though the LEAF is my daily commuter, I'm putting miles on the MS at 4x the rate because we take it for every long distance trip, rather than the CRV).

So if the seats aren't comfortable or the touchscreen is weird enough, then I'll probably bail on the M3 reservation.
 
EatsShootsandLeafs said:
EVDriver what don't you like at all that would make you consider bailing on your M3 reservation?
Click to expand...

I like the faster steering ratio on the 3 FYI and the more nimble handling. I like the smaller size as the S is a large car at times but it is also a very nice for road trips, more of a touring sedan. One thing I am torn on is the lack of a hatchback as I can carry very large items in the S and this will be very restricted on the 3 even with pass through. I was hoping to sell my truck and the S would suffice in many instances. Any other negatives are minimal at this point other than loosing free supercharging which likely will be impossible with so many 3 drivers on the way.

Also, my S is a D and the lack of this on initial 3 models is a compromised. The added traction of the S is really nice and has saved me on some steep roads and I do use it in snow as well. Most people may not care about this in warm climates. Of course the added power of the S is also nice once you get used to having it.
 
SageBrush said:
GRA said:
As to resistance to change, please point to anyone here who is resistant to change which demonstrably improves functionality, safety and/or reliability, or else reduces cost while maintaining the same level of functionality/safety/reliability.
Click to expand...
How would you like "demonstrably" to occur ?

Will a well powered, randomized, double blinded study of monkeys suffice ?
Click to expand...
Adequate statistical data for safety and reliability, combined with comparative tests by a broad spectrum of users, both experienced and inexperienced, and with starting attitudes towards the different methods varying from one extreme to the other, plus those who have no initial opinion either way. Pretty much the same as any other human factors interface is tested. But anyone can start by comparing the time it takes to do the same function while timing it with a stopwatch (most cell phones probably come with this app), first sitting in a parked car,and then repeating it on the road, on first acquaintance and then after you have familiarity. Consumer Reports has done such tests of many car control interfaces, and the results vary considerably. For instance, here's one such article, from the April 2017 Car issue, titled "Proceed with Caution", on new arrangements of automatic shifters instead of the standard PRNDL: https://www.consumerreports.org/car-safety/automatic-shifters-proceed-with-caution/

Here's a comparative review based on owner reports on car infotainment systems using touchscreens: https://www.consumerreports.org/cars-infotainment-system-brand-by-brand-guide/

If you want a more scientific approach, there are tons of papers on aircraft cockpit ergonomics and the effects of multi-function displays and controls, etc. and many of the techs which first were used in aviation (HUDs etc.) have since moved to cars. Here's one of the first that came up (from 1989) when googling, which oddly enough happens to be authored by the guy who was later my then-girlfriend's boss when she was doing human factors work at both NASA Ames and Lawrence Livermore:

Human Factors of Advanced Technology
("Glass Cockpit") Transport Aircraft

Earl L. Wiener

From the summary:
This is a report of a three-year field study of airline crews at
two major U.S. airlines who were flying an advanced technology
aircraft, the Boeing 757. The study addresses the opinions and
experiences of these pilots as they view the advanced, automated
features of this aircraft, and contrast it with previous models
they have flown.

The report addresses a large number of aspects of automated
flight, but concentrates on the following topics:

  • 1. Training for advanced automation
    2. Cockpit errors and error reduction
    3. Management of cockpit workload
    4. General attitudes toward cockpit automation

The limitations of the air traffic control (ATC) system on the
ability to utilize the advanced features of the new aircraft is
discussed. In general the pilots are enthusiastic about flying
an advanced technology aircraft, but they express mixed feelings
about the impact of automation on workload, crew errors, and
ability to manage the flight. . . .

[Pg. 157] Safety

Many of the flight crews, even those with generally positive
attitudes toward automation, were dubious as to whether
automation represented a step forward in flight safety. This
view was consistent with attitudes expressed in a previous study
of DC-9 to MD-80 transition (Wiener, 1985b). One of the
conclusions in that report stated:

In general cockpit automation was not viewed, even by its
strongest supporters, as a boon to safety. Their attitude
toward the safety aspect of automation was essentially
neutral. (p. 94).

Experience with the Aircraft

Both the open-ended questionnaire items and the interviews
revealed that many crew members expressed the belief that as
one's experience with the aircraft increased, many of the
perceived problems vanished. However, the author's hypothesis
that there would be a general shift toward more favorable views
of automation from the first phase questionnaire to the second
(over a year later) on the appropriate attitude probes was not
supported. Based on quantitative data, we cannot report any
shift in attitude from the first to the second questionnaire
(mid-1986 to mid-1987). In fact the distribution of responses in
the two phases are strikingly similar. Statistical tests were
performed on the Phase-1 vs. Phase-2 responses to the 36 attitude
items. Only two of the 36 tests performed (Bowker test for
symmetry of responses) were significant (PI6 and P34). These two
contrasts did show an increasingly favorable view of automation.
See Appendix 5 for these data. . . .
Click to expand...

https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19890016609.pdf

Here's a New Yorker article from 2014, more suited for the general public, which quotes Wiener and others doing studies in the field on the effects of automation etc. on pilot responses and abilities:
The Hazards of Going on Autopilot
Click to expand...
http://www.newyorker.com/science/maria-konnikova/hazards-automation

You can find many NTSB aircraft accident reports that list cockpit control or display design and automation as primary or contributing factors to crashes.

Re cars specifically, here's part of one article I posted on this forum in the past, via GCC:
Univ of Utah studies find up to 27 seconds of mental distraction for drivers after using new hands-free technologies
Click to expand...
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2015/10/20151023-utah.html
Potentially unsafe mental distractions for drivers can persist for as long as 27 seconds after dialing, changing music or sending a text using voice commands, according to a pair of new studies for the AAA Foundation for Traffic Safety by University of Utah researchers.

The researchers discovered the residual effects of mental distraction while comparing new hands-free technologies in ten 2015 vehicles and three types of smartphones. The analysis found that all systems studied increased mental distraction to potentially unsafe levels. The systems that performed best generally had fewer errors, required less time on task and were relatively easy to use.

One of the studies showed that it is highly distracting to use hands-free voice commands to dial phone numbers, call contacts, change music and send texts with Microsoft Cortana, Apple Siri and Google Now smartphone personal assistants, though Google Now was a bit less distracting than the others.

The other study examined voice-dialing, voice-contact calling and music selection using in-vehicle information or “infotainment” systems in 10 model-year 2015 vehicles. Three were rated as moderately distracting, six as highly distracting and the system in the 2015 Mazda 6 as very highly distracting.

The results raise new and unexpected concerns regarding the use of phones and vehicle information systems while driving. This research represents the third phase of the Foundation’s comprehensive investigation into cognitive distraction, which shows that new hands-free technologies can mentally distract drivers even if their eyes are on the road and their hands are on the wheel. . . .
Click to expand...
To sum up, the literature on this subject is extensive, as is the methodology used to study it.
 
Link to all current Model 3 specs and more interior and exterior photos ... (use password at the top of the page to access photos)

https://www.tesla.com/presskit


Mine would look like this: (red multi-coat, premium 'vegan' black interior package (includes glass roof, etc.), EAP, 19" sport wheels and long range battery --- first production)

M3.JPG
 
GRA said:
As to resistance to change, please point to anyone here who is resistant to change which demonstrably improves functionality, safety and/or reliability, or else reduces cost while maintaining the same level of functionality/safety/reliability.
Click to expand...

Not the only reasons for change. It could be for lower cost, aesthetics etc.

Given there are no major safety issues.

Both the open-ended questionnaire items and the interviews
revealed that many crew members expressed the belief that as
one's experience with the aircraft increased, many of the
perceived problems vanished.
Click to expand...

Most of the distractions for me come because of changing what I'm listening to. Given the large number of choices - the only options are touchscreen or voice.
 
evnow said:
GRA said:
Our objections are based on real world issues which have caused numerous accidents, and which have been extensively researched and documented.
Click to expand...
I know of people who crib about Model S touchscreen being distracting who extensively use smartphones when driving.

Solution to all this is voice commands.
Click to expand...
When done properly they can be, although as was mentioned in another post, certain types of voice commands can cause a great deal of distraction which continues for some time afterwards (up to 27 seconds in that study). IIRR, research shows that voice commands require far more mental processing (mental cycles) than simple muscle memory ones. IDK whether or not occasional adjustments of HVAC controls are frequent enough to invoke muscle memory (as riding a bike or playing an instrument does), but I know that I can do many simple mechanical tasks with well-designed controls while applying far less concentration to them than a touchscreen requires, especially those that don't require visual attention as well (which is why touchscreens with tactile feedback require fewer mental cycles than those without). I detest poorly designed controls and displays.
 
EVDRIVER said:
EatsShootsandLeafs said:
EVDriver what don't you like at all that would make you consider bailing on your M3 reservation?
Click to expand...

I like the faster steering ratio on the 3 FYI and the more nimble handling. I like the smaller size as the S is a large car at times but it is also a very nice for road trips, more of a touring sedan. One thing I am torn on is the lack of a hatchback as I can carry very large items in the S and this will be very restricted on the 3 even with pass through. I was hoping to sell my truck and the S would suffice in many instances. Any other negatives are minimal at this point other than loosing free supercharging which likely will be impossible with so many 3 drivers on the way.

Also, my S is a D and the lack of this on initial 3 models is a compromised. The added traction of the S is really nice and has saved me on some steep roads and I do use it in snow as well. Most people may not care about this in warm climates. Of course the added power of the S is also nice once you get used to having it.
Click to expand...
I'd also prefer a hatchback/wagon/CUV body, as the ability to easily load a bike inside is useful to me, and just for all-around utility generally. I'd also prefer something shorter and narrower than the 3, which is still much larger than I need - my Forester's 9.8" shorter and 8.1" narrower (but 8.2" higher, much of which I don't need), and it's plenty big enough for me. I'm not a fan of not having basic displays directly in front of me, but could probably get used to it. Given my road trip needs and unwillingness to be forced to stop more often than I want, or spend any more time than I have to at places I have no desire to spend time in I'd have to opt for the LR version, which raises the price out of what I'm willing to pay, and then there's the $1k rip-off for a color other than black, although I imagine Tesla will have to get rid of that at some point in the future. AWD is much desired for winter convenience and almost considered essential, but price dependent. But assuming no other major ergonomic issues (seats, view out etc.), control functionality and ease of use are make or break for me, and what matters is how I use them, not how anyone else does.

I can afford to wait for the Model Y (FWD = no sale) and any less expensive competitors that arrive, as my current car suits my needs just about perfectly except for not being a ZEV, and barring accident will last many more years. Hopefully by then Electrify America or some other QC networks will approach the coverage of the SC network and pricing, so I will have realistic non-Tesla choices. Or FCEVs/H2 will become affordable and that infrastructure widely deployed, as they are a better match for my operational and longevity requirements, barring any major improvements in battery tech (capacity, charge rate and longevity) in the interim.
 
As I mentioned a few weeks ago, the big surprise in the leaked model 3 specs was TSLAs switch to PM motors.

Edmunds has an article on this subject, linked below.

On the positive side, TSLA has adopted motor technology that should allow it to be competitive with other BEVs in terms of efficiency, capability which is notably lacking in the old S and X motor designs.

The obvious negative, is the risk of using new and untested motors in the model 3, success being even more critical due to the announced planned production ramp-up to ~ five thousand units a week, in only a few months.

="edatoakrun"
Guess the Monroney contest: Tesla 3 and LEAF 2 efficiency ratings

...The big surprise in the model 3 specs we now know from the subsequent leaks of the combined MPGe and model three certification report, which I was not expecting when I guessed on 8/3, was the change to (presumably) more efficient "AC 3 PHASE PERMENANT (sic) MAGNET" motors from the inefficient and problematic motors used on the S and X types.

https://www3.epa.gov/otaq/datafiles/CSI-HTSLV00.0L13.PDF
...
Click to expand...
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=24340

2017 Tesla Model 3 Has Unexpected Electric Motor Design

...The big news is this: the Model 3 uses a permanent magnet (PM) electric motor instead of the AC induction motors used in all Tesla products to date.

It may sound like a nerdy difference, but this is a huge deal on many levels. Tesla's entire identity is tied up with the AC induction motor, a type that Nikola Tesla himself patented in the late 1880s. Not only that, the Tesla logo is said to be a cross-section of one lobe of one of its own AC induction motors. Tesla is the only production electric carmaker with this type of motor, so it has historically bad-mouthed the PM motors used by everyone else...

... the Model 3 will be the first Tesla that's rated higher in the city than it is on the highway. That's not because freeway efficiency is substandard (that, too, is better than any other Tesla) but because around-town efficiency is vastly improved...

The final bit of interesting information comes from what the 2017 EPA filing documents don't say. There's no mention of a 2017 standard-range Model 3. That seems to clinch the idea that we won't see any of those vehicles until 2018. And with no filing from Tesla on the base car, there's no range and consumption data we can analyze. Not yet, anyway.
Click to expand...
https://www.edmunds.com/car-news/auto-industry/2017-tesla-model-3-has-unexpected-electric-motor-design.html
 
GRA said:
EVDRIVER said:
EatsShootsandLeafs said:
EVDriver what don't you like at all that would make you consider bailing on your M3 reservation?
Click to expand...

I like the faster steering ratio on the 3 FYI and the more nimble handling. I like the smaller size as the S is a large car at times but it is also a very nice for road trips, more of a touring sedan. One thing I am torn on is the lack of a hatchback as I can carry very large items in the S and this will be very restricted on the 3 even with pass through. I was hoping to sell my truck and the S would suffice in many instances. Any other negatives are minimal at this point other than loosing free supercharging which likely will be impossible with so many 3 drivers on the way.

Also, my S is a D and the lack of this on initial 3 models is a compromised. The added traction of the S is really nice and has saved me on some steep roads and I do use it in snow as well. Most people may not care about this in warm climates. Of course the added power of the S is also nice once you get used to having it.
Click to expand...
I'd also prefer a hatchback/wagon/CUV body, as the ability to easily load a bike inside is useful to me, and just for all-around utility generally. I'd also prefer something shorter and narrower than the 3, which is still much larger than I need - my Forester's 9.8" shorter and 8.1" narrower (but 8.2" higher, much of which I don't need), and it's plenty big enough for me. I'm not a fan of not having basic displays directly in front of me, but could probably get used to it. Given my road trip needs and unwillingness to be forced to stop more often than I want, or spend any more time than I have to at places I have no desire to spend time in I'd have to opt for the LR version, which raises the price out of what I'm willing to pay, and then there's the $1k rip-off for a color other than black, although I imagine Tesla will have to get rid of that at some point in the future. AWD is much desired for winter convenience and almost considered essential, but price dependent. But assuming no other major ergonomic issues (seats, view out etc.), control functionality and ease of use are make or break for me, and what matters is how I use them, not how anyone else does.

I can afford to wait for the Model Y (FWD = no sale) and any less expensive competitors that arrive, as my current car suits my needs just about perfectly except for not being a ZEV, and barring accident will last many more years. Hopefully by then Electrify America or some other QC networks will approach the coverage of the SC network and pricing, so I will have realistic non-Tesla choices. Or FCEVs/H2 will become affordable and that infrastructure widely deployed, as they are a better match for my operational and longevity requirements, barring any major improvements in battery tech (capacity, charge rate and longevity) in the interim.
Click to expand...
Yeah, the problem is when you start deep diving into the actual costs and some practical issues like range and charging and all that, there are definitely some sacrifices you need to make with the model 3 (or any EV, but on the leaf the car is almost certainly going to lease out at a very low price).
 
GRA said:
IIRR, research shows that voice commands require far more mental processing (mental cycles) than simple muscle memory ones.
Click to expand...
Just a question of practice. You don't spend that much mental processing power when you ask someone to pass the salt than when you are debating, for eg. "Hey Tesla, set temperature to 70" doesn't have to be too taxing on the brain.

BTW, muscle memory works with touch screen as well.
 
evnow said:
GRA said:
IIRR, research shows that voice commands require far more mental processing (mental cycles) than simple muscle memory ones.
Click to expand...
Just a question of practice. You don't spend that much mental processing power when you ask someone to pass the salt than when you are debating, for eg. "Hey Tesla, set temperature to 70" doesn't have to be too taxing on the brain.

BTW, muscle memory works with touch screen as well.
Click to expand...

I'm glad some people will pass son the Model 3 for small details that make no difference. Also note the Tesla has manual controls on the steering. I use them to set the temp.
 
evnow said:
GRA said:
IIRR, research shows that voice commands require far more mental processing (mental cycles) than simple muscle memory ones.
Click to expand...
Just a question of practice. You don't spend that much mental processing power when you ask someone to pass the salt than when you are debating, for eg. "Hey Tesla, set temperature to 70" doesn't have to be too taxing on the brain.

BTW, muscle memory works with touch screen as well.
Click to expand...
I think the extra thought comes from thinking about how to phrase the command as many voice command systems are not very intuitive. When systems are completely natural language, it requires less thought and concentration.
Jarvis, go 5 miles per hour over the limit.
Jarvis, lower fan speed.
Jarvis, take me home.
Jarvis, will I be late for my appointment?
Jarvis, take a scenic route.

Siri is halfway decent at times, but I find myself struggling to think of ways to phrase requests and questions in a way she will understand at times. On the other hand, my daughter simply talks to Siri like she's a person. Sometimes it works out well, and other times Siri doesn't understand, but that's how the questions and requests should be posed for least distraction. In any event, with Level 3 autopilot when it comes next year along with voice commands, will make things much simpler.
 
EVDRIVER said:
I'm glad some people will pass son the Model 3 for small details that make no difference. Also note the Tesla has manual controls on the steering. I use them to set the temp.
Click to expand...

So how many controls are on the steering wheel? Are they programmable so I can assign my own functions to them? So if I decide that I somehow want "vent controls" or "temperature" on my steering wheel, do I have to give up something I use more frequently like cruise control or audio volume? And are the steering wheel controls available on the premium package only?
 
lpickup said:
EVDRIVER said:
I'm glad some people will pass son the Model 3 for small details that make no difference. Also note the Tesla has manual controls on the steering. I use them to set the temp.
Click to expand...

So how many controls are on the steering wheel? Are they programmable so I can assign my own functions to them? So if I decide that I somehow want "vent controls" or "temperature" on my steering wheel, do I have to give up something I use more frequently like cruise control or audio volume? And are the steering wheel controls available on the premium package only?
Click to expand...

Great questions! I love it when people ask questions rather than make assumptions.
Unfortunately, I can't answer your questions about the Model 3, yet.
I can tell you that on the Model S & X there are a variety of controls that can be mapped to the steering wheel buttons.
Also, for the S & X the bottoms are available for all trims.

I can also say that I have not seen an image of the steering wheel that did not have the steering wheel controls.

Hopefully we will find out more soon.
 
Zythryn said:
I can also say that I have not seen an image of the steering wheel that did not have the steering wheel controls.
Click to expand...

Yeah, but they haven't built any vehicles (that we've seen anyway) without the premium package yet, so that doesn't really say much.
 

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