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GRA said:
One of my requirements is to have the car meet my needs for at least 12 but preferably 15 years or more

Guy,

I'm not going to debate your ability to use a Model 3. I think that you have a perfectly legitimate reason to hang onto your Subie. In fact, keeping the car that you have is by far the most environmentally friendly thing you can do. Far better than buying a new car every 3 years.

That said, I'll say this about the quoted - infrastructure is growing very quickly. I would expect a lot of your gaps to be filled in as your car ages (and original battery degrades). If the car can make it in 2018 with a new battery, it will probably still make it in 2030 with a degraded battery (assuming proper battery management - an unknown), albeit with additional QC stops.
 
GetOffYourGas said:
GRA said:
One of my requirements is to have the car meet my needs for at least 12 but preferably 15 years or more
Guy,

I'm not going to debate your ability to use a Model 3. I think that you have a perfectly legitimate reason to hang onto your Subie. In fact, keeping the car that you have is by far the most environmentally friendly thing you can do. Far better than buying a new car every 3 years.

That said, I'll say this about the quoted - infrastructure is growing very quickly. I would expect a lot of your gaps to be filled in as your car ages (and original battery degrades). If the car can make it in 2018 with a new battery, it will probably still make it in 2030 with a degraded battery (assuming proper battery management - an unknown), albeit with additional QC stops.
I've been expecting/hoping a lot of the gaps would be filled in for several years now, at least as far as Tesla's SC network, but many of the ones they've said they were going to do have been put back for a year (more than once in many cases), so I can't count on what may exist at some point, only what does exist. If it hadn't been for lobbying by TMC members (including me), we might still not have SCs in Groveland and Fishcamp as well as Lone Pine and Mammoth Lakes (most of us were asking for Lee Vining rather than Mammoth, and still want one there), so people could get through Yosemite to the east side. I mentioned some of the other SCs upthread that also have been promised for a while but not built. Same goes for the CEC sites, which were announced back at least in 2017 and should have been done this year, but have apparently been delayed again per Paul Gipe.

Besides, patience isn't my strong suit, and sitting around at QCs solely because I'm waiting for enough charge to get me where I want to go would quickly drive me insane; I need enough range that all charging stops can be combined with meals and take the same amount of time. I listed for you what I consider my minimum requirements in the 'Electrify America' topic: https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=25212&p=536870&hilit=bishop#p536870 and as noted there, I'm willing (but definitely not eager) to accept a 50% decrease in range/capability compared to my current (or pretty much any other fossil-fueled) vehicle to go ZEV. That will allow at least weekend trips without major excess time for charging stops, i.e. no more than one QC each way. Getting down to Lone Pine and back might take two, which is a pain. Serious road trips (400+ miles each way) are still going to involve a lot of excess wasted time in a BEV.

A Model 3 LR can probably (it shows as yellow, will probably make it) make my base case trip to Lee Vining for a couple of years (worst case, an October trip with 4 guys plus packs @ 1,000 lbs., 32 deg. avg. but no major wind or rain, speed 1.1, 90% start, 15% end), but as noted it's the wrong body type (as well as having other features I consider undesirable and being too expensive). The Niro won't be able to do that trip in those conditions, but might be able to for a year or two in benign conditions. Realistically, I'd need one of the CEC's QCs in Groveland or at Rush Creek Lodge at Yosemite plus one in Lee Vining to be built before I can do the round trip with reasonable reserves and without having to twiddle my thumbs for an extra hour or two of charging (by needing to charge above 80% enroute).
 
GetOffYourGas said:
In fact, keeping the car that you have is by far the most environmentally friendly thing you can do. Far better than buying a new car every 3 years.

That is not actually a fact.

Depending on the vehicle's gas mileage and availability of zero carb electricity, getting an EV might be better.


Even one every 3 years - because the sold (or lease back) car will replace a clunker cheaply for someone else.
 
If you really want to go into LCA stuff, it gets much more complicated quickly. You have to include:
- How many tons of CO2-equivalent does the new car cost to produce
- How many emissions is the new car actually offsetting
- How strongly does your new purchase actually increase production of cars
- Who are you selling your old car to (i.e. what's the car's lifecycle, not just your ownership lifecycle?)

Right now, in relatively worst-case conditions for BEVs, a BEV emits about 4-8 tons of CO2 more during production than an ICE car. On most grids, this is offset by about 20-40k mi of driving (at 35mpg-ish). So if you can cause your ICE car to drive about that amount less over its entire lifecycle, it'll be a win. You can speed things along by making sure to only charge on 100% renewables. But, if your decision to purchase a BEV will in fact accelerate the production of cars, certainly the short-term and likely even the long-term effect will be that net emissions will go up.

Thus, driving less and buying less cars is always going to be the greener option. And in a surprising amount of cases, sticking to your old gas guzzler may be better too.

This is why it's probably best to stimulate EVs among very inefficient and inherently high-mileage drivers, like taxis and sales reps. That's where you can get a lot of net benefit from EVs quickly without having all kinds of ancillary negative effects in the manufacturing chain.
 
evnow said:
GetOffYourGas said:
In fact, keeping the car that you have is by far the most environmentally friendly thing you can do. Far better than buying a new car every 3 years.

That is not actually a fact.

Depending on the vehicle's gas mileage and availability of zero carb electricity, getting an EV might be better.


Even one every 3 years - because the sold (or lease back) car will replace a clunker cheaply for someone else.
I'm averaging less than 2k miles/year (@ 28-30 mpg) over the past several years, so in my case I have little doubt that keeping the car is the lowest GHG choice, even though my community recently switched to zero carbon electricity (with 100% renewables as an individual option). When my annual mileage goes back up to 10k or more it will be time to switch, but I'm only planning to take the trips that will cause that to happen after I've switched.
 
GRA said:
evnow said:
GetOffYourGas said:
In fact, keeping the car that you have is by far the most environmentally friendly thing you can do. Far better than buying a new car every 3 years.

That is not actually a fact.

Depending on the vehicle's gas mileage and availability of zero carb electricity, getting an EV might be better.


Even one every 3 years - because the sold (or lease back) car will replace a clunker cheaply for someone else.
I'm averaging less than 2k miles/year (@ 28-30 mpg) over the past several years, so in my case I have little doubt that keeping the car is the lowest GHG choice, even though my community recently switched to zero carbon electricity (with 100% renewables as an individual option). When my annual mileage goes back up to 10k or more it will be time to switch, but I'm only planning to take the trips that will cause that to happen after I've switched.

Exactly.

EVNow - I was specifically addressing Guy's situation, and not making a blanket statement. All of the points you bring up are valid in a general case. With Guy's extreme use case, though, it simply doesn't apply.
 
GRA said:

Careful what you cite. They're not all worth the ink they've been written with. That Bloomberg New Energy Finance report is beyond F**d up!

"The problem, BNEF notes, is that the places that build batteries for electric cars around the world use among the dirtiest energy. Those places include China, Thailand, Germany, and Poland, the report says."

Hmmm, where does Nissan build the Leaf batteries? And what about Renault, Hyundai, Kia, and LG? And I don't even need to point out the gorilla in the room do I?
 
One of the driving reasons for *increasing* battery prices at the moment (in the Western market) is that the vast majority of batteries for EVs we can actually drive are made in some of the cleanest-energy, best-working-condition-areas of the world (Panasonic - Japan and US, LG and Samsung SDI - South Korea, AESC - Japan), using ethically sourced materials. These aren't the problem, and these are actually very low-carbon and low-polluting.

The scary articles about battery production mostly center around BYD and smaller manufacturers in China, who have much less scrupules about unethically sourcing materials and just using the cheapest energy around, which is still coal in China. Unfortunately for the world, China is the largest EV market, so on the whole, this makes EVs look bad even though a Tesla battery is probably 10x as good as a BYD battery in terms of carbon and chemical pollution.
 
Oils4AsphaultOnly said:
GRA said:

Careful what you cite. They're not all worth the ink they've been written with. That Bloomberg New Energy Finance report is beyond F**d up!

"The problem, BNEF notes, is that the places that build batteries for electric cars around the world use among the dirtiest energy. Those places include China, Thailand, Germany, and Poland, the report says."

Hmmm, where does Nissan build the Leaf batteries? And what about Renault, Hyundai, Kia, and LG? And I don't even need to point out the gorilla in the room do I?
Have you noted the number of battery plants now being built or expanded in China and the other countries mentioned above which are heavily dependent on coal for electricity, by companies like BMW and D-B, not to mention Tesla and the native companies?
China's BYD launches world's biggest battery factory
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...-worlds-biggest-battery-factory-idUSKBN1JO0SI

Tesla’s Latest Aim: Build 500,000 Cars a Year in China
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/10/business/tesla-china-shanghai.html

Daimler to buy electric car battery cells from China's CATL
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...-battery-cells-from-chinas-catl-idUSKBN1I31WB

Battery production in Thailand. Mercedes-Benz Cars pushes electric initiative in South-East Asia
https://www.daimler.com/company/locations/thailand/

BMW Brilliance Automotive expands battery factory in China
https://www.press.bmwgroup.com/glob...-expands-battery-factory-in-china?language=en

And going the other way:
BMW is investing billions into China’s new battery-cell factory in Germany
https://qz.com/1323752/bmw-is-investing-billions-into-chinas-first-battery-plant-in-germany/

You mentioned LG Chem:
LG to open Europe's biggest car battery factory next year
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...t-car-battery-factory-next-year-idUSKBN1CH21W

That will be in Poland, a country that gets more than half its primary energy from coal, and as for electricity, coal is an even larger % of the total (88% in 2012).
 
GRA said:
Oils4AsphaultOnly said:
GRA said:

Careful what you cite. They're not all worth the ink they've been written with. That Bloomberg New Energy Finance report is beyond F**d up!

"The problem, BNEF notes, is that the places that build batteries for electric cars around the world use among the dirtiest energy. Those places include China, Thailand, Germany, and Poland, the report says."

Hmmm, where does Nissan build the Leaf batteries? And what about Renault, Hyundai, Kia, and LG? And I don't even need to point out the gorilla in the room do I?
Have you noted the number of battery plants now being built or expanded in China and the other countries mentioned above which are heavily dependent on coal for electricity, by companies like BMW and D-B, not to mention Tesla and the native companies?
China's BYD launches world's biggest battery factory
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...-worlds-biggest-battery-factory-idUSKBN1JO0SI

Tesla’s Latest Aim: Build 500,000 Cars a Year in China
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/10/business/tesla-china-shanghai.html

Daimler to buy electric car battery cells from China's CATL
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...-battery-cells-from-chinas-catl-idUSKBN1I31WB

Battery production in Thailand. Mercedes-Benz Cars pushes electric initiative in South-East Asia
https://www.daimler.com/company/locations/thailand/

BMW Brilliance Automotive expands battery factory in China
https://www.press.bmwgroup.com/glob...-expands-battery-factory-in-china?language=en

And going the other way:
BMW is investing billions into China’s new battery-cell factory in Germany
https://qz.com/1323752/bmw-is-investing-billions-into-chinas-first-battery-plant-in-germany/

You mentioned LG Chem:
LG to open Europe's biggest car battery factory next year
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...t-car-battery-factory-next-year-idUSKBN1CH21W

That will be in Poland, a country that gets more than half its primary energy from coal, and as for electricity, coal is an even larger % of the total (88% in 2012).

It's as if you have a narrative that you want pushed!

For a guy who tries to stay informed about alternative vehicles and energy, you sure have a fairly biased slant against EV's. The whole argument about how dirty EV's are (because of coal-based electricity) has been countered by the fact that renewables are replacing fossil fuels at an exponential rate. Just because it's dirty today, doesn't mean it won't get cleaned up tomorrow.

And if you cite the IEA's forecasts as proof about how long that would take, here's proof that the IEA/EIA have been under-predicating the shift every year for over a decade: https://cleantechnica.com/2017/09/06/iea-gets-hilariously-slammed-continuously-pessimistic-renewable-energy-forecasts/

Stop trying to find evidence to justify your position and open your eyes to the fact that BEV's powered by renewable energy is the future and it's coming much faster than the fossil fuel industry would like.
 
Oils4AsphaultOnly said:
It's as if you have a narrative that you want pushed!

For a guy who tries to stay informed about alternative vehicles and energy, you sure have a fairly biased slant against EV's. The whole argument about how dirty EV's are (because of coal-based electricity) has been countered by the fact that renewables are replacing fossil fuels at an exponential rate. Just because it's dirty today, doesn't mean it won't get cleaned up tomorrow.

And if you cite the IEA's forecasts as proof about how long that would take, here's proof that the IEA/EIA have been under-predicating the shift every year for over a decade: https://cleantechnica.com/2017/09/06/iea-gets-hilariously-slammed-continuously-pessimistic-renewable-energy-forecasts/

Stop trying to find evidence to justify your position and open your eyes to the fact that BEV's powered by renewable energy is the future and it's coming much faster than the fossil fuel industry would like.
I'm aware of IEA/EIA numbers and projections, as well as others. I'm not biased against BEVs, but I recognize that all techs have environmental and societal impacts, and we need to do what we can to minimize the negative ones. For example, BMW is doing something about sourcing cobalt that isn't produced by child labor in the DRC.

And let's not forget that the above spun off from whether or not I'd have a smaller GHG output by keeping my current car.

As to the fact that cleaner energy will (gradually) replace coal and other fossil fuels, no one's arguing that it won't, but the fact is that energy transitions have heretofore taken 60-100 years (or longer), and even while the percentage of the old energy source was declining its total amount was increasing. For example, IIRR (need to check this) coal use worldwide reached the highest its ever been in total terms this century, thanks largely to China's huge expansion for both electricity generation and industrial use (coke for steel, etc.), and India is following the same path albeit slower. Similarly, petroleum and NG use are increasing as well.

I'm hopeful that, given the different motivation driving us this time we can halve the time to transition, but it will require a major commitment of money and effort to do so (akin to fighting a major war), and barring some unmistakable evidence of AGCC its very unlikely that the existing fossil fuel electricity generation infrastructure will be thrown away en masse before its economic lifetime is up, especially when (in countries like China and India) so much of it has been built recently. All the countries above (not sure about Thailand) have RPSs, but the amount of energy needing to be replaced is so large that it is not going to be easy or quick.

I highly recommend either of Vaclav Smil's two books on Energy Transitions, which delineate the scale of the problem; the first edition was 2010, and the 2nd edition was published in 2016, and includes data through 2015; I've read both, and have the 2nd ed. at home now. We'll be dependent on fossil fuels for decades yet, although the share of renewables will be increasing. And one thing that has been consistent through all transitions is that there are always unknown/unpredictable factors which occur and slow things down. Sometimes its due to wars, other times to economic, political, technical or social factors (e.g. OPEC and Iran price hikes in the '70s, or post-TMI and Chornobyl abandonment of most nuke building in the west). There are also differences in how renewable electricity and fossil fuels get converted for comparison in some reports, so it's necessary to be careful when comparing one report with another. I forget whether IEA uses the direct thermal energy equivalent or the useful energy method (used by BP IIRR) for converting RE, but the latter's about 3 times greater for RE in the energy values.

The article you cite mentions S-curves. It's true that most transitions do follow such curves, but there are different ones (Smil lists several) and actual curves always have major discontinuities due to unexpected factors that occur. About the only thing you can say about long range forecasts of market share for any particular energy source at any given time is that it will almost certainly be wrong by a wide margin. Smil gives numerous examples of such.
 
IEVS reports 194 Mirais sold/leased in the U.S. in November. If my count is correct, that makes 1,468 YTD. I've been seeing them more frequently around here the past couple of months, although the fact that one of only three H2 fueling stations in the East Bay is fairly close by undoubtedly influences the number of sightings. I see even more Claritys, but most now are PHEVs as you'd expect given sales.
 
GRA on January 3 said:
Per IEVS, Toyota sold/leased 269 Mirais in the U.S. in December, for a total of 1,835 for the year. This total doesn't agree with last month's, as at that time IEVS claimed 1,542 YTD, + 269 = 1,811. Perhaps they updated the old number.
GRA on January 5 said:
IEVS reports 232 Mirais sold/leased in the U.S. in December. If my count is correct, that makes 1,700 for the year.
2018 versus 2017 YOY growth for the Toyota Mirai: -6.1%

In other news, the sales of non-Model 3 BEVs continued double-digit growth even while the newcomer smashed all previous records. Not so for the Toyota Mirai.

The miserable sales of the Toyota Mirai are just as expected. It's too bad that California taxpayers have to continue to pay for this extremely bad idea.
 
RegGuheert said:
GRA on January 3 said:
Per IEVS, Toyota sold/leased 269 Mirais in the U.S. in December, for a total of 1,835 for the year. This total doesn't agree with last month's, as at that time IEVS claimed 1,542 YTD, + 269 = 1,811. Perhaps they updated the old number.
GRA on January 5 said:
IEVS reports 232 Mirais sold/leased in the U.S. in December. If my count is correct, that makes 1,700 for the year.
2018 versus 2017 YOY growth for the Toyota Mirai: -6.1%

In other news, the sales of non-Model 3 BEVs continued double-digit growth even while the newcomer smashed all previous records. Not so for the Toyota Mirai.

The miserable sales of the Toyota Mirai are just as expected. It's too bad that California taxpayers have to continue to pay for this extremely bad idea.

Agreed. Not only do the FCEV's get more ZEV credits, but we had to subsidize all those H2 stations too! :(
 
Per IEVS, 77 Mirais were sold in the U.S. in January. I've recently been seeing more Mirais than Clarity FCEVs, reversing the ratios. In fact, I'm averaging a Mirai sighting almost every day now, and even saw two at the same intersection (heading 90 deg. to each other) a week or so back. I have no doubt that my relative proximity (ca. 2 miles) to one of the four H2 stations in the East Bay, which is located more or less at the junction of two major commute routes, plays a role in boosting the number of FCEVs I see, but the numbers, while still tiny, are definitely growing. I've yet to see a Nexo, but expect I will in the next few months.
 
Lazy last month, so here's Feb. and March U.S. Mirai sales per IEVS:

Feb, 94.
March, 176.
-----------------
2019 total, 347.

I see almost no Clarity FCEVs (but lots of PHEVs) now, but the Mirai has become a fairly common sight, typically one every 1 to 3 days, occasionally two in a few minutes.
 
GRA said:
IEVS reports 194 Mirais sold/leased in the U.S. in November. If my count is correct, that makes 1,468 YTD. I've been seeing them more frequently around here the past couple of months, although the fact that one of only three H2 fueling stations in the East Bay is fairly close by undoubtedly influences the number of sightings.
If you go camp out at the Mirai factory you might see a different car almost EVERY day.
 
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