Hyundai Kona Electric

The Bolt has no heat pump. It too has a system for scavenging heat from the car's drivetrain (not the brakes) to provide a little heat, but in the Bolt's case it goes to the cabin.

^^^ Thanks.

GRA said:

Thanks, nice review. I forget,, does the Bolt have a heat pump, or just a resistive heater? If the Kona details are confirmed, the lack of availability of a heat pump for U.S. cars, at least along the coasts, south and desert southwest where winters are mild, is idiotic. It's not needed (although it will still waste energy) for local use where the range is excessive, but for road trips it does matter, and these cars have both the range and charging speeds to be used for weekend trips. The battery heater will be needed/wanted in mountain areas and the northern tier states. Offer them both as options and be done with ti, or at least make the heat pump standard and the heater optional.

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The Bolt EV only has a resistive cabin heater. It also always has a dedicated battery heater.

I personally think all Kona’s should come with the dedicated battery heater because people travel on vacation and may sometimes need it. It would be nice to have a customer option on the cabin heating or make it part of a trim package at least but with a big enough battery it becomes less critical.

LeftieBiker said:

The Bolt has no heat pump. It too has a system for scavenging heat from the car's drivetrain (not the brakes) to provide a little heat, but in the Bolt's case it goes to the cabin.

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I’m not aware of anything in the Bolt EV cabin heating that scavenges heat from the powertrain. The Bolt has a dedicated water-glycol loop that passes through an electric heater and then goes through a heat exchanger in the cabin ventilation ducts. This loop is completely separate from the powertrain coolant loop and there is no heat exchanger or computer-controlled valves that interconnect them to share heat as far as I know. The Bolt also has a 3rd coolant loop dedicated just to the battery pack.

By contrast, the Kona EV has only a single coolant loop for the motor, power electronics, and battery but appears to have computer controlled valves that can separate the battery into its own subloop when it doesn’t want to share heat from the powertrain.

Bolt uses a 7.5kW resistive heater and boosts that to a 9 kW draw when enabling the "auto defog" :shock:

https://www.mychevybolt.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=5752&sid=11adbd60ca6ca5f525f5e0809950d624&start=10#p13192

JeffN said:

LeftieBiker said:

The Bolt has no heat pump. It too has a system for scavenging heat from the car's drivetrain (not the brakes) to provide a little heat, but in the Bolt's case it goes to the cabin.

Click to expand...

I’m not aware of anything in the Bolt EV cabin heating that scavenges heat from the powertrain. The Bolt has a dedicated water-glycol loop that passes through an electric heater and then goes through a heat exchanger in the cabin ventilation ducts. This loop is completely separate from the powertrain coolant loop and there is no heat exchanger or computer-controlled valves that interconnect them to share heat as far as I know. The Bolt also has a 3rd coolant loop dedicated just to the battery pack.

By contrast, the Kona EV has only a single coolant loop for the motor, power electronics, and battery but appears to have computer controlled valves that can separate the battery into its own subloop when it doesn’t want to share heat from the powertrain.

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The scavenging circuit was mentioned several times in early descriptions of the design, and was the explanation given when drivers experienced small amounts of heat entering the cabin when the Heater was off in mild weather. As I recall, the heat comes from the controller and maybe the inverter. I believe it is the basis for some people thinking that the Bolt has a heat pump. I'd go look in the Bolt forum, but at some point in this last year I lost access to all the other EV forums on this site...

Very favorable review of the Kona Electric, just posted to YouTube:

https://youtu.be/qe2PGCCODu0

LeftieBiker said:

JeffN said:

LeftieBiker said:

The Bolt has no heat pump. It too has a system for scavenging heat from the car's drivetrain (not the brakes) to provide a little heat, but in the Bolt's case it goes to the cabin.

Click to expand...

I’m not aware of anything in the Bolt EV cabin heating that scavenges heat from the powertrain. The Bolt has a dedicated water-glycol loop that passes through an electric heater and then goes through a heat exchanger in the cabin ventilation ducts. This loop is completely separate from the powertrain coolant loop and there is no heat exchanger or computer-controlled valves that interconnect them to share heat as far as I know. The Bolt also has a 3rd coolant loop dedicated just to the battery pack.

By contrast, the Kona EV has only a single coolant loop for the motor, power electronics, and battery but appears to have computer controlled valves that can separate the battery into its own subloop when it doesn’t want to share heat from the powertrain.

Click to expand...

The scavenging circuit was mentioned several times in early descriptions of the design, and was the explanation given when drivers experienced small amounts of heat entering the cabin when the Heater was off in mild weather. As I recall, the heat comes from the controller and maybe the inverter. I believe it is the basis for some people thinking that the Bolt has a heat pump. I'd go look in the Bolt forum, but at some point in this last year I lost access to all the other EV forums on this site...

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You may be thinking of a different car? I’m pretty confident that the Bolt does not scavenge heat like that. The Bolt battery coolant loop does (like pretty much all cars with liquid-cooled battery packs) have a tap into the A/C refrigerant loop so a hot battery can cause the A/C system to start up to help cool the battery and this also cools the cabin even if cabin A/C is not specifically enabled. The reverse is not true in the Bolt — cabin heating and battery heating are entirely independent and do not share heat. I own a Bolt and bought a copy of the ~4,500 page Bolt service manual.

You may be thinking of a different car? I’m pretty confident that the Bolt does not scavenge heat like that. The Bolt battery coolant loop does (like pretty much all cars with liquid-cooled battery packs) have a tap into the A/C refrigerant loop so a hot battery can cause the A/C system to start up to help cool the battery and this also cools the cabin even if cabin A/C is not specifically enabled. The reverse is not true in the Bolt — cabin heating and battery heating are entirely independent and do not share heat. I own a Bolt and bought a copy of the ~4,500 page Bolt service manual.

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I can't say that this car actually scavenges heat. All I can say is that the claim was made when the car was new, and that people in the Bolt forum mentioned feeling warm air entering the cabin in cool but mild temps like the low sixties. If you have access to the Bolt forum (I no longer do) then searching there should produce the posts.

Via IEVS, Edmunds' video comparo of the Bolt and Kona: https://insideevs.com/edmunds-hyundai-kona-electric-vs-chevy-bolt/ They both pan the Bolt's seats, light-colored interior (glare - avoid) and cheap feel, but like its driving dynamics esp. regen in 'L' mode which is stronger than the Kona's highest level ('3'), steering wheel positioning, rear seat leg/foot room. The Kona has a better ride, better seats, more upscale interior, more range and slightly greater cargo space and they give the nod to it, but it's close.

I took a closer look yesterday at LA Auto Show. Given a choice of the Kona and the Bolt, I don't know why would one buy the Bolt except for availability reasons.

Valdemar said:

I took a closer look yesterday at LA Auto Show. Given a choice of the Kona and the Bolt, I don't know why would one buy the Bolt except for availability reasons.

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If the seats don't bother you (like Keijidosha they're fine for me, at least the cloth ones in the LT I drove were), per the Edmunds' test driving dynamics would give the nod to the Bolt if you're someone who likes to drive fast in the twisties - even though I didn't have the chance to do so when I drove one, I really liked the Bolt's regen controls and general feel. If the Kona comes in about the same price or less than the Bolt it's undoubtedly a better value for the dollar, and the better ride would give it the nod for A to B commuting on the potholed, truck-waved freeways we have.

IEVS:

Hyundai Kona Electric Gets Range Downgraded Too: Follows Kia Niro EV

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https://insideevs.com/hyundai-kona-electric-range-lowered-wltp/

When the specifications for the 64-kWh version of the Hyundai Kona Electric first appeared, it was graced with a range of 292 miles under Worldwide harmonized Light vehicles Test Procedure (WLTP). If it seemed a little too good to be true, that’s because it was. The automaker has learned that the external agency responsible for making the calculation slipped up, and Hyundai has now published new, lower figures.

According to a report in Autocar, the 64-kWh Kona Electric is now rated at 279 miles under the WLTP, while the 39.2-kWh version — which will not be available in the U.S. — has been downgraded from 186 miles to 180 miles. The news comes after learning that its corporate cousin, the Kia Niro EV (e-Niro), suffered the same fate. . . .

In the U.S., meanwhile, the EPA has rated the 64-kWh Kona Electric at 258 miles, which we believe is a more realistic figure. For its part, the (64-kWh) Kia Niro EV was given a more believable 239 miles of travel on a charge using the U.S. agency test.

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Now the WLTP to EPA numbers make more sense.

GCC:

Hyundai prices Kona Electric starting at $36,450 before Fed tax credit

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https://www.greencarcongress.com/2018/12/20181215-kona.html

Hyundai announced that the starting price for the 2019 Kona Electric electric crossover is $36,450, for an effective net price of $28,950 ($29,995 including delivery), with the electric vehicle tax credit of $7,500 factored in. . . .

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That's a base MSRP only $170 less than the Bolt LT, although you get more car for that.

Indeed. Compared to the Bolt, it is 5% cheaper, has a 7% larger battery, 8% longer range, 0.5% more power... Then there are the subjective measures of comfort, etc. It's a good incremental improvement for sure. The Bolt is due for a mid-cycle refresh in 2020 or so. It will be interesting to see whether Chevy responds with their own incremental improvements.

https://insideevs.com/hyundai-kona-electric-next-best-expensive-teslas/

I just wrote this new article with lots of new details about the Kona Electric’s battery pack layout and liquid thermal management. It will be interesting to compare this to what Nissan reveals about the forthcoming LEAF e-Plus pack.

Exclusive: details on Hyundai’s new battery thermal management design

Hyundai’s new 2019 Kona Electric, with its 64 kWh battery and an EPA-rated 258 miles of range, has gotten many positive initial reviews but until now we haven’t known much about some important aspects of its internal powertrain design.

....Now, Hyundai has revealed these details to Electric Revs for their new generation of all-electric cars.

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https://electricrevs.com/2018/12/20/exclusive-details-on-hyundais-new-battery-thermal-management-design/

It's always nice to read a piece with no typos or mistakes. Good job. I do have one question:

When a dedicated 2 kW battery heater is available (as in the Canadian version), it is used primarily at sub-zero temperatures (0C or 32F) or when the driver enables an optional “Winter Mode”. The battery heater, if present, is located outside the battery pack and warms the liquid “coolant” just before it enters into the pack.

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Battery warming really starts at 32F?

LeftieBiker said:

It's always nice to read a piece with no typos or mistakes. Good job. I do have one question:

When a dedicated 2 kW battery heater is available (as in the Canadian version), it is used primarily at sub-zero temperatures (0C or 32F) or when the driver enables an optional “Winter Mode”. The battery heater, if present, is located outside the battery pack and warms the liquid “coolant” just before it enters into the pack.

Click to expand...

Battery warming really starts at 32F?

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My understanding is that battery warming using the dedicated battery heater, if present, starts at 32F if “Winter Mode” is disabled.

Some amount of heat will be exchanged from the motor, motor inverter, and on-board charger when the battery heater is not being used and temperatures are cool but above around 32F.

JeffN said:

LeftieBiker said:

It's always nice to read a piece with no typos or mistakes. Good job. I do have one question:

When a dedicated 2 kW battery heater is available (as in the Canadian version), it is used primarily at sub-zero temperatures (0C or 32F) or when the driver enables an optional “Winter Mode”. The battery heater, if present, is located outside the battery pack and warms the liquid “coolant” just before it enters into the pack.

Click to expand...

Battery warming really starts at 32F?

Click to expand...

My understanding is that battery warming using the dedicated battery heater, if present, starts at 32F if “Winter Mode” is disabled.

Some amount of heat will be exchanged from the motor, motor inverter, and on-board charger when the battery heater is not being used and temperatures are cool but above around 32F.

Click to expand...

I think you mean, and the article states "the battery heater is used primarily at sub-zero temperatures (0C or 32F) or when the driver enables an optional “Winter Mode”.
Which makes more sense to me
As an EV'er in a northern climate which can get as cold or colder than areas of Canada, I'm not too happy that the winter mode will not be available to people in the US, only Canada :x at least for the '19 model year. I also dislike that without the winter mode, you'll be stuck with just a resistive heater and not the much more efficient(at least at moderate(teens F and above temp) heat pump heater) which I feel is pretty short-sighted as it's in just those moderate temps(and not sub-zero F temps) that a heat pump heater shines.
Another interesting point from the article:
"The winter mode uses extra energy to warm the battery pack to allow for full regenerative braking and quicker fast DC charging. Colder pack temperatures force the battery management system to restrict the amount of power that can recharge the battery in order to avoid damaging the carbon graphite anode. This is an issue common to most lithium ion batteries. Cold temperatures are not much of an issue for power coming out of the battery except under rare and extreme conditions like down near -40 degrees."
Luckily we rarely get below 20F in Minneapolis, -30F is about as cold as it ever gets. Northern MN is different where it can get -40F several times per winter but few people live in those areas and because things are so spread out there, an EV probably wouldn't be as practical.
Another quote indicating "winter mode" is enabled to start battery heating.
"When temperatures are really cold, the dedicated battery heater kicks in (if present) even if “Winter Mode” isn’t enabled."
Oh and if I did my calculations correct, the weight of just the battery cells of the 64kWh would weigh ~525lbs, guessing closer to 600lbs or more with the case and coolant loop material(just an FYI).
I agree with Leftie, a nice and very informative article