edatoakrun
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Re: Official Kia Soul EV thread

Wed Apr 13, 2016 12:15 pm

Looks like the AVTA Soul Fleet (three out of four reporting) lost (on average) something over 10% of their baseline battery capacity over ~11 months and ~12,000 miles of use...In Phoenix.

https://avt.inl.gov/vehicle-type/all-po ... chitecture

Not enough data yet (IMO) to make a valid comparison to the (2013 is the most recent MY) LEAF capacity loss results.

On the positive side, The 2015 Soul E's seem to be using only ~5% more Wh/mile than the 2013 LEAFs, so their rudimentary ATM systems don't seem to impose the large efficiency penalty as does the Ford Focus E's (which seems to require ~20% greater Wh/m than the LEAFs) the only other BEV with a ~year or more of AVTA battery results posted.

IMO, it is likely that a few years from now the AVTA data from Phoenix will show that if you live in any climate this hot (and especially if you utilize high kWh throughput in the Summer) you will either have to pay a hell of a lot to cool your pack, or you will have to accept considerably faster degradation than that experienced by BEVs in cooler climates.
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mtndrew1
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Re: Official Kia Soul EV thread

Wed Apr 13, 2016 3:12 pm

Oh thanks for the link! I didn't realize they had updated the Souls and it's always fun to look through the data. I suspect the Wh/mi variance has everything to do with the Soul being shaped like a brick. The Soul's TMS is a cage fan pulling a small amount of cabin air through the pack after the temperature sensors reach a given threshold and/or when quick charging in high ambient temps. I can't imagine, based on what I've witnessed, that it consumes more than 50 Wh for an entire charge/discharge cycle. It increases the HVAC load a little bit too, but I suspect it would be hard to measure. Pretty good cooling bang for the buck.

The '13 Leaf with similar mileage shows nearly 17% degradation from new. Naturally they're not apples to apples but if one takes it as face value the Leaf has experienced 70% more degradation than the Soul in similar conditions.

I really wish there were AVTA data on the '15 Leaf with the new pack chemistry to make a valid comparison. It'll be fun to watch how the air-cooled cars' capacity losses continue over more time and mileage. As far as liquid TMS goes, the Volt sure looks like it holds up very well in Phoenix with a 9% measured loss over nearly 130,000 miles of driving. https://avt.inl.gov/sites/default/files ... lt4313.pdf
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edatoakrun
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Re: Official Kia Soul EV thread

Wed Apr 13, 2016 5:39 pm

="mtndrew1"
Oh thanks for the link! I didn't realize they had updated the Souls and it's always fun to look through the data. I suspect the Wh/mi variance has everything to do with the Soul being shaped like a brick. The Soul's TMS is a cage fan pulling a small amount of cabin air through the pack after the temperature sensors reach a given threshold and/or when quick charging in high ambient temps. I can't imagine, based on what I've witnessed, that it consumes more than 50 Wh for an entire charge/discharge cycle. It increases the HVAC load a little bit too, but I suspect it would be hard to measure. Pretty good cooling bang for the buck.

I expect this would have only minor effects on pack temperatures. Air is an excellent insulator, but a lousy conductor of heat.

The Soul's ~26% larger battery pack may give more benefits in limiting heat build-up, by allowing more efficient lower kW/C rates during both charging and discharging. And (hopefully) their newer batteries will prove to be a bit more resistant to heat degradation than are the LEAFs' are.

Of course, larger pack cost/benefits cut both ways. In terms of absolute capacity loss, the larger Soul batteries may be losing more Wh over ~the same time and miles driven than the LEAFs are.

="mtndrew1
...The '13 Leaf with similar mileage shows nearly 17% degradation from new. Naturally they're not apples to apples but if one takes it as face value the Leaf has experienced 70% more degradation than the Soul in similar conditions...

I don't see how you reached that conclusion. If I got the math right:

The two 2103 LEAFs which baseline at ~500 miles, with one summer of use averaging ~15.5 k miles over just under 15 months, show ~15.3% average capacity loss, or ~3.7 kWh average.

The three 2015 Souls which baseline at ~400 miles, also with a different summer of use averaging just under 12k k miles over just under 11 months, show ~10.5% average capacity loss, or ~3.2 kWh average.

I don't see that very preliminary data, showing slightly over 1% capacity loss per month for the LEAFs, as compared with slightly under 1% capacity loss per month for the Souls, a great achievement for Kia.

If I were to venture a guess, it looks to me like 2015 Phoenix Soul drivers may reach average 70% EOL capacity only a few months longer after delivery, than 2013 Phoenix LEAF drivers will.

="mtndrew1
...As far as liquid TMS goes, the Volt sure looks like it holds up very well in Phoenix with a 9% measured loss over nearly 130,000 miles of driving. https://avt.inl.gov/sites/default/files ... lt4313.pdf

This has been discussed on the Volt thread. Yes, if you don't use a PHEV's batteries much, and are willing to run the ICE generator to provide energy for battery cooling, even after the pack is discharged, batteries will last a lot longer than they will in a BEV, especially in Phoenix.

Those Volts were driven mostly on gas, and averaged an unimpressive 39.3 mpg.

Meaning hybrid ICEVs driven over the same routes probably could have used about the same amount of gas, without ever plugging them in.
Just a waste of both the battery pack and all the kWh used in charging, for a PHEV used in this application.

https://avt.inl.gov/sites/default/files ... ltEREV.pdf
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lorenfb
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Re: Official Kia Soul EV thread

Wed Apr 13, 2016 8:07 pm

edatoakrun wrote:
="mtndrew1"
Oh thanks for the link! I didn't realize they had updated the Souls and it's always fun to look through the data. I suspect the Wh/mi variance has everything to do with the Soul being shaped like a brick. The Soul's TMS is a cage fan pulling a small amount of cabin air through the pack after the temperature sensors reach a given threshold and/or when quick charging in high ambient temps. I can't imagine, based on what I've witnessed, that it consumes more than 50 Wh for an entire charge/discharge cycle. It increases the HVAC load a little bit too, but I suspect it would be hard to measure. Pretty good cooling bang for the buck.

I expect this would have only minor effects on pack temperatures. Air is an excellent insulator, but a lousy conductor of heat.

The Soul's ~26% larger battery pack may give more benefits in limiting heat build-up, by allowing more efficient lower kW/C rates during both charging and discharging. And (hopefully) their newer batteries will prove to be a bit more resistant to heat degradation than are the LEAFs' are.

Of course, larger pack cost/benefits cut both ways. In terms of absolute capacity loss, the larger Soul batteries may be losing more Wh over ~the same time and miles driven than the LEAFs are.

="mtndrew1
...The '13 Leaf with similar mileage shows nearly 17% degradation from new. Naturally they're not apples to apples but if one takes it as face value the Leaf has experienced 70% more degradation than the Soul in similar conditions...

I don't see how you reached that conclusion. If I got the math right:

The two 2103 LEAFs which baseline at ~500 miles, with one summer of use averaging ~15.5 k miles over just under 15 months, show ~15.3% average capacity loss, or ~3.7 kWh average.

The three 2015 Souls which baseline at ~400 miles, also with a different summer of use averaging just under 12k k miles over just under 11 months, show ~10.5% average capacity loss, or ~3.2 kWh average.

I don't see that very preliminary data, showing slightly over 1% capacity loss per month for the LEAFs, as compared with slightly under 1% capacity loss per month for the Souls, a great achievement for Kia.

If I were to venture a guess, it looks to me like 2015 Phoenix Soul drivers may reach average 70% EOL capacity only a few months longer after delivery, than 2013 Phoenix LEAF drivers will.

="mtndrew1
...As far as liquid TMS goes, the Volt sure looks like it holds up very well in Phoenix with a 9% measured loss over nearly 130,000 miles of driving. https://avt.inl.gov/sites/default/files ... lt4313.pdf

This has been discussed on the Volt thread. Yes, if you don't use a PHEV's batteries much, and are willing to run the ICE generator to provide energy for battery cooling, even after the pack is discharged, batteries will last a lot longer than they will in a BEV, especially in Phoenix.

Those Volts were driven mostly on gas, and averaged an unimpressive 39.3 mpg.

Meaning hybrid ICEVs driven over the same routes probably could have used about the same amount of gas, without ever plugging them in.
Just a waste of both the battery pack and all the kWh used in charging, for a PHEV used in this application.

https://avt.inl.gov/sites/default/files ... ltEREV.pdf


All good points, i.e. the delta battery data are in "noise level". Being presented with essentially anecdotal
data from the Soul doesn't provide for a reliable differentiating analysis. Furthermore, we have yet to be
presented with any truly effective BEV battery "elixir" for the inherent long term battery capacity loss,
e.g. blowing cabin air over a battery that has a very long thermal TC (time constant) whether a in Leaf or
in a Soul has questionable merit especially after being parked for an extended period of time.

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redLEAF
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Re: Official Kia Soul EV thread

Mon May 30, 2016 6:11 am

Of course this is for the Hyundai line and not yet for Kia but would imagine they will come next if enough customers ask for it ... as they're offering on their plug-in hybrid which I'm sure has some uniqueness to keeping those functions intact; perhaps other mfg's will follow this lead.

Would love DIY update access with smart phones; Bravo Hyundai !!

Hyundai offering free Apple CarPlay and Android Auto updates

http://autoweek.com/article/technology/hyundai-offering-free-apple-carplay-and-android-auto-updates#ixzz4A8xch8pq
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Re: Official Kia Soul EV thread

Mon Sep 19, 2016 3:27 pm

Via GCC, more of an obvious rumor (from last January, yet) than a report IMO:
2018 Kia Soul EV to get range boost to keep pace: report
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/110 ... ace-report

They obviously need to boost it to at least match the '100 and a bit' range of the current competition, but if they really want to see some major sales increase they'll need to figure out how to get 200 miles or more. That seems unlikely on a mid-life update as the changes tend to be minimal, and probably requires a whole new generation to fit that much more battery.
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Re: Official Kia Soul EV thread

Mon Sep 19, 2016 3:33 pm

They don't even sell this thing nationwide.
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Re: Official Kia Soul EV thread

Mon Sep 19, 2016 3:56 pm

ampitupco wrote:They don't even sell this thing nationwide.

Considering the distribution of sales of all PEVs, with California alone taking 54 or was it 56% of them recently and the other CARB states taking most of the rest, that's hardly a major issue.
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Re: Official Kia Soul EV thread

Tue Sep 20, 2016 9:57 am

GRA wrote:
ampitupco wrote:They don't even sell this thing nationwide.

Considering the distribution of sales of all PEVs, with California alone taking 54 or was it 56% of them recently and the other CARB states taking most of the rest, that's hardly a major issue.


Colorado has a $6000 dollar state rebate. It's insane they don't sell them here, at least.
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Re: Official Kia Soul EV thread

Tue Sep 20, 2016 11:47 am

GRA wrote:
ampitupco wrote:They don't even sell this thing nationwide.

Considering the distribution of sales of all PEVs, with California alone taking 54 or was it 56% of them recently and the other CARB states taking most of the rest, that's hardly a major issue.

What came first, the chicken or the egg? True CA might be the biggest buyers of EVs but if mfgs. like Kia are only going to sell their product in CA......well you get the idea.
When I went looking for a EV very few were available in my state, basically the Leaf and Volt, if you call that a EV(oh and the iMe if you count that as a car)......... I wanted to look at the nice offerings from Honda(the PHEV Accord) and Toyota(PIP) but no dealers in my state would sell one to me :x So while it's true CA purchases the most EVs.......CA is one of the only state that has said EVs for sale.
Of course this didn't happen by accident, the CA people, legislation and sheer numbers are able to get it done but I have a feeling if the rest of the country had the number of EVs available as CA(and I remember NY also sold the PHEV Accord) their numbers would have been better.
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