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RegGuheert
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Re: Official Hyundai Tucson FCEV thread

Fri Jun 20, 2014 7:04 am

Zythryn wrote:As I understand it, the ZEV credits are not paid by the government, they are bought by other manufacturers that are not building up to the threshold set by CA CARB board.
Fuel cell vehicles get 9 credits per vehicle. So the manufacture can use those to meet the threshold and if they surpass them, can sell them to other manufacturers.
Thanks! So they are exchanged at some sort of a bourse, sort of like SRECs. In the case of SRECs, there is a government penalty associated with not having sufficient credits, so that caps the maximum value of the credits. Perhaps the penalty amount is what caps the nine credits at $130,000? (I assume no one would pay more than the penalty amount...)
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evnow
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Re: Official Hyundai Tucson FCEV thread

Fri Jun 20, 2014 8:32 am

GRA wrote:I was talking about general capabilities and similarity to ICE habits, not the fueling infrastructure. Obviously, building the fueling infrastructure will be expensive and take several decades, just as building the gas station infrastructure did (last year being the 100th anniversary of the first gas station in the U.S. The total at the peak was around 160,000, but has now declined to something over 100,000).

You can't get to a ICE like "habits" with an FCEV unless you have those 100,000 H2 stations all over the place. That is my point - there is no divorcing the fact of 6 H2 stations vs 100,000 gas stations and FCEV driving habits vs ICE driving habits.

This ridiculous FCEV "rollout" makes RAV4EV look like a widely distributed car :lol: :lol:
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TomT
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Re: Official Hyundai Tucson FCEV thread

Fri Jun 20, 2014 8:39 am

+1

evnow wrote:This ridiculous FCEV "rollout" makes RAV4EV look like a widely distributed car :lol: :lol:
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71,770 miles/12 bars/256 Gids/59.04 AHr/88% SOH/87.92% Hx 3Mar16 at lease return.

Now driving a 2016 Volt Premier. Model 3 reserved.

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Re: Official Hyundai Tucson FCEV thread

Fri Jun 20, 2014 4:24 pm

evnow wrote:
GRA wrote:I was talking about general capabilities and similarity to ICE habits, not the fueling infrastructure. Obviously, building the fueling infrastructure will be expensive and take several decades, just as building the gas station infrastructure did (last year being the 100th anniversary of the first gas station in the U.S. The total at the peak was around 160,000, but has now declined to something over 100,000).

You can't get to a ICE like "habits" with an FCEV unless you have those 100,000 H2 stations all over the place. That is my point - there is no divorcing the fact of 6 H2 stations vs 100,000 gas stations and FCEV driving habits vs ICE driving habits.

This ridiculous FCEV "rollout" makes RAV4EV look like a widely distributed car :lol: :lol:

And you can't get to ICE habits without those gas stations either, although you can get some ways towards it by selling gas in general stores (as was the case before gas stations existed). And BEVs can't get anywhere without installing reasonably fast charging infrastructure, at home to get the maximum benefit, plus quick chargers en route. Public, for-profit charging has been a bust, because the long turn-over time and overhead costs make it a money loser. That's not a problem for gas stations, and it won't be for H2 stations either. So, sure, it will be expensive and it will take us many decades to get to large numbers of H2 fueling stations and FCEVs. But then, it took us well over a decade to get to 1 million gas cars on the road, so it's not as if FCEVs and H2s can't and won't grow together. And does anyone think that Tesla's Supercharger network can yet be described as _robust_? In two years, they've installed just under 100 in the U.S., to serve something like 25,000 cars. At the current rate it will be at least 5 years before you can really go anywhere you want in the U.S. without having to plan your trip out in detail. And only if you can afford a BEV with Tesla range (not that FCEVs are any cheaper at the moment, but their projected cost reduction curves are still a lot steeper).

Obviously, absent home refueling FCEVs will need a higher number of stations per car than a BEV like a Tesla will, but then they can and will be put where people are instead of having to be put where they aren't to prevent local freeloaders (this being due to Tesla's business model rather than anything inherent in the Superchargers), so people won't have to change their behavior at all. Societal inertia is a powerful force; if you doubt it, just look at your keyboard layout. It's almost assuredly QWERTY, even though the technical reason for it ended at the very latest when IBM introduced the Selectric 53 years ago if not well before, and faster/more efficient keyboard layouts have been available for at least the past 80 years. But we're still using Qwerty because, even though it's less efficient, it's 'good enough' that most can't be bothered to make the effort to learn something new.
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TonyWilliams
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Re: Official Hyundai Tucson FCEV thread

Mon Jun 23, 2014 6:28 pm

RegGuheert wrote:
Zythryn wrote:As I understand it, the ZEV credits are not paid by the government, they are bought by other manufacturers that are not building up to the threshold set by CA CARB board.
Fuel cell vehicles get 9 credits per vehicle. So the manufacture can use those to meet the threshold and if they surpass them, can sell them to other manufacturers.
Thanks! So they are exchanged at some sort of a bourse, sort of like SRECs. In the case of SRECs, there is a government penalty associated with not having sufficient credits, so that caps the maximum value of the credits. Perhaps the penalty amount is what caps the nine credits at $130,000? (I assume no one would pay more than the penalty amount...)


Yes, there is a penalty of $5000 per credit not earned. Here are the credit balances:

http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/zevprog/ze ... redits.htm

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Re: Official Hyundai Tucson FCEV thread

Fri Jul 11, 2014 2:54 pm

Via GCR:

"Hyundai Tucson Fuel Cell Covers 435 Miles On Single Tank Of Hydrogen"

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/109 ... f-hydrogen

Not representative of freeway cruising and probably not too representative of the average driver, but still nice. They averaged 47 mph, while the Tesla Model S that went 423.5 miles on a charge only averaged 25 mph, and that in warmer temps.
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The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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Re: Official Hyundai Tucson FCEV thread

Thu Aug 11, 2016 3:58 pm

Via GCC:
Hyundai delivers first fuel cell vehicle in Québec
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2016/08 ... undai.html

Hyundai Auto Canada Corp. has delivered a 2016 Tucson Fuel Cell vehicle to the Centre de Gestion de l’Equipment Roulant (CGER)—its first customer in Québec, the third province where the vehicle can now be found.

The CGER manages vehicle fleets for Québec provincial ministries and the lease is in partnership with the Hydrogen Research Institute of Trois-Rivieres at Université du Québec à Trois-Rivières. The vehicle will be refueled at the Institute. . . .


So far it looks like they're limited to fleet use in Canada, with 6 in BC and 1 in Ontario. Given the almost non-existent fueling infrastructure there, that's not surprising.

Canada does seem to me to be a better fit for FCEVs than BEVs in rural areas at their current stages of development, given the long driving distances and frigid temps, always assuming a fueling infrastructure is built, of course. BEVs win in the urban areas where most of the population is concentrated, although a high % live in MFH with no way to charge, and they would really benefit from the 2nd Gen's bigger batteries to handle the heat/defroster load.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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Re: Official Hyundai Tucson FCEV thread

Fri Aug 12, 2016 6:59 am

GRA wrote:Canada does seem to me to be a better fit for FCEVs than BEVs in rural areas at their current stages of development, given the long driving distances and frigid temps, always assuming a fueling infrastructure is built, of course. BEVs win in the urban areas where most of the population is concentrated, although a high % live in MFH with no way to charge, and they would really benefit from the 2nd Gen's bigger batteries to handle the heat/defroster load.


Rather thann build out a ridiculously expensive hydrogen network that will likely continue to promote fracking of natural gas and release of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere at a greater level than just driving a Toyota Prius, why don't we put heaters on the batteries in those cold weather areas that are fueled by something other than electricity?

Too simple you ask? Yes, it will eventually blow up the future multi-billion dollar hydrogen government grant game.

What could power a vehicle onboard heater that would heat the battery so that the battery will perform as if it were a nice warm sunny day like in beautiful San Diego? Almost anything, including gasoline / diesel. Alcohol, propane, natural gas,, even hydrogen. What makes sense? Not an "exotic" energy that has no infrastructure.

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Re: Official Hyundai Tucson FCEV thread

Fri Aug 12, 2016 3:23 pm

TonyWilliams wrote:
GRA wrote:Canada does seem to me to be a better fit for FCEVs than BEVs in rural areas at their current stages of development, given the long driving distances and frigid temps, always assuming a fueling infrastructure is built, of course. BEVs win in the urban areas where most of the population is concentrated, although a high % live in MFH with no way to charge, and they would really benefit from the 2nd Gen's bigger batteries to handle the heat/defroster load.

Rather thann build out a ridiculously expensive hydrogen network that will likely continue to promote fracking of natural gas and release of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere at a greater level than just driving a Toyota Prius, why don't we put heaters on the batteries in those cold weather areas that are fueled by something other than electricity?

Too simple you ask? Yes, it will eventually blow up the future multi-billion dollar hydrogen government grant game.

What could power a vehicle onboard heater that would heat the battery so that the battery will perform as if it were a nice warm sunny day like in beautiful San Diego? Almost anything, including gasoline / diesel. Alcohol, propane, natural gas,, even hydrogen. What makes sense? Not an "exotic" energy that has no infrastructure.

Tony, as you are aware I'm all for auxiliary on-board heaters for BEVs, but IIRR to date only Volvo seems to have ever done this for any PEV. IDK if the issue is space, cost or safety (testing, a cost issue).

As for promotion of fracking, that will depend on costs, and PV/Wind are reaching the point where they are cost-competitve with NG without subisidies. Besides, Canada's grid is already cleaner than ours: http://www.electricity.ca/media/Industr ... e_2012.PNG
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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Re: Official Hyundai Tucson FCEV thread

Sat Aug 13, 2016 12:23 am

I wasn't necessarily referring to natural gas for electricity production, but instead as the base material for hydrogen. As you know, hydrogen doesn't just float around us; we have to extract it from something, and it takes two things to make the happen

1) the base material that contains H2
2) the significant energy required to split the H2 from its base material, compress it and cool it

There are four main sources for the commercial production of hydrogen: natural gas, oil, coal, and electrolysis; which account for 48%, 30% 18% and 4% of the world’s hydrogen production respectively (from Wikipedia).

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