GRA
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Re: Toyota Mirai Fuel Cell

Tue Oct 03, 2017 7:41 pm

Per IEVS, 184 Mirais were sold/leased in September, making 1,044 for the year (vs. 710 last YTD), so about a 44% YoY increase (from a small starting number, to be sure). No info on the Clarity yet.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
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Re: Toyota Mirai Fuel Cell

Fri Oct 27, 2017 4:25 pm

OT, further to cobalt sourcing, via GCC:
BMW Group adopts new approaches for a more sustainable battery cell supply chain; focus on cobalt
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2017/10/20171027-bmw.html

. . . The challenge facing companies that work with cobalt as a raw material is that risks related to environmental standards and human rights cannot be completely eliminated in cobalt mining.

The BMW Group has now set itself the goal of enhancing the transparency of its battery cell supply chain and exploring options for model projects in the Democratic Republic of Congo.

The BMW Group has been participating in the Responsible Cobalt Initiative (RCI)—together with many other companies and organizations, the government of the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC) and the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD)—since the beginning more than one and a half years ago. The aim of this initiative is to increase transparency and governance, and implement collective measures to overcome social and environmental risks in the cobalt supply chain.

The Responsible Cobalt Initiative was launched in November 2016 by the Chinese Chamber of Commerce for Metals, Minerals & Chemicals (CCCMC) Importers & Exporters, with strong support from the OECD. The OECD is actively engaged in the initiative through its work with a broad coalition of stakeholders in the OECD Responsible Minerals implementation program. . . .

In 2014 approximately 40,000 children worked in mines across southern DRC, many of them mining cobalt, according to UNICEF. The DRC Government has pledged to eliminate this by 2025.

In this context, the BMW Group has decided to take further steps:

    The company will increase the transparency of its own cobalt supply chain by the end of the year, by releasing information on smelters and countries of origin for raw materials—even though these smelters are not direct BMW Group suppliers, but companies named as sources by BMW Group suppliers.

    The BMW Group is also currently working with an independent partner on a feasibility study to explore to what extent the social and ecological situation can be sustainably improved through model mines for artisanal mining in the Democratic Republic of Congo. The study is specifically evaluating whether local model projects could be implemented with the potential for scalability at a later date.

    The BMW Group does not procure any cobalt itself; it only comes into contact with this raw material through the purchase of battery cells, for example. However, we are well aware that growing demand for electric vehicles also goes hand-in-hand with a responsibility for the extraction of relevant raw materials, such as cobalt. As a premium manufacturer—and in the interests of our customers—we aim to establish a transparent and sustainable supply chain that meets the highest standards.


    —Ursula Mathar, head of Sustainability and Environmental Protection at the BMW Group
The BMW Group currently expects the first steps in verifying a local model project to coincide with the publication of smelters and countries of origin in December 2017. . . .

They'll need independent monitoring to ensure that this isn't just PR greenwashing.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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RegGuheert
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Re: Toyota Mirai Fuel Cell

Fri Oct 27, 2017 5:41 pm

GRA wrote:They'll need independent monitoring to ensure that this isn't just PR greenwashing.
I think they are doing the right thing. Identifying the problem is step one. Attempting to create transparency is the next step. Once you shine a light on the problem, then you can work toward the best way to move forward.

Frankly, it's a breath of fresh air compared with the broad-based diesel scandal in Germany.
RegGuheert
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Enphase Inverter Measured MTBF: M190, M215, M250, S280

GRA
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Re: Toyota Mirai Fuel Cell

Wed Nov 01, 2017 7:18 pm

Per IEVS, October U.S. Mirai sales/leases were 203, for 1,293 YTD versus 813 YTD in 2016 for a 59% increase YoY, albeit from a small base.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

mmd
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Re: Toyota Mirai Fuel Cell

Sat Dec 02, 2017 1:13 am

Hi All,
New to this forum. I'm seriously considering a Mirai lease. I live in San Jose, CA and the San Jose refueling station is just 0.3 miles off my I-880 commute route. I could fill up once a week.

I am an EV driver just tired of charging my car everyday. Long distance travel with stops for charging? Forget about it. Have difficulty locating EV chargers on chargepoint because either they are located in some obscure corner of giant parking lots, or the info is just wrong, or sometimes they are inside parking garages with fees. Last 2 times I wasted half an hour circling these areas. Waste of time and charge :(

So I find the H2 approach more appealing for long distance driving, if it indeed fills up in ~5 mins.
Are there some real Mirai drivers on this thread? I have a few questions:
1. Any range loss in winter/summer?
2. How is the uptime of the H2 stations?
3. Reliability issues?

BTW, I called Stevens Creek Honda today, as the Clarity FCEV lease for 20000 miles a year, $369/mo and 5 seats looks really much better than the Mirai lease deal. Mirai leg room in the back is very low compared to its size.
Unfortunately, it seems Honda isn't making very many. I was told, there is a wait list of ~100 and it will be Nov of 2018 before I get my Clarity fuel cell. :o I cannot find a single Clarity FCEV on cars.com either.

cwerdna
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Re: Toyota Mirai Fuel Cell

Sat Dec 02, 2017 1:48 am

mmd wrote:.. Have difficulty locating EV chargers on chargepoint because either they are located in some obscure corner of giant parking lots, or the info is just wrong, or sometimes they are inside parking garages with fees. Last 2 times I wasted half an hour circling these areas. Waste of time and charge

You should use Plugshare. I wouldn't bother with using the Chargepoint app to find charging stations except for ones on their network. Even then, I'd still check Plugshare.
mmd wrote:Are there some real Mirai drivers on this thread?

I'm not aware of any. There's at least a blue one at my work. I see a white one sometimes in my part of the Bay Area.

I sometimes see a Mirai or two fueling up at the H2 station (which also is a gas station) near my work. I pass that station pretty much every day when I leave from work.

From http://www.hybridcars.com/october-2017-dashboard/, seems like Mirai sales volumes are quite small. A quick Google search for toyota mirai forums didn't turn up much helpful. For instance, http://www.mytoyotamirai.com/forum/sear ... ive_topics seems overrun by spam that hasn't been cleaned up.

https://www.toyota.com/owners/toyota-forum/mirai seems pretty light on content. And, who knows what Toyota's censorship policy is there?

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mmd
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Re: Toyota Mirai Fuel Cell

Sat Dec 02, 2017 3:31 pm

cwerdna wrote:I'm not aware of any. There's at least a blue one at my work. I see a white one sometimes in my part of the Bay Area.

I sometimes see a Mirai or two fueling up at the H2 station (which also is a gas station) near my work. I pass that station pretty much every day when I leave from work.

From http://www.hybridcars.com/october-2017-dashboard/, seems like Mirai sales volumes are quite small. A quick Google search for toyota mirai forums didn't turn up much helpful. For instance, http://www.mytoyotamirai.com/forum/sear ... ive_topics seems overrun by spam that hasn't been cleaned up.

https://www.toyota.com/owners/toyota-forum/mirai seems pretty light on content. And, who knows what Toyota's censorship policy is there?

Thanks @cwerdna! Interesting, I do know you from another forum :o I saw 65 pages of discussion, so thought there could be some Mirai drivers/lessors here. But thanks anyway. Seems the H2 stations work just fine.

I checked the Mirai forum on toyota's website earlier. Tried logging in, but it keeps giving me errors on both IE and Firefox. It seems not many members.
The Mirai deal for $349/mo, 12k miles/yr looks good until one knows about the Honda Clarity deal of 20k miles/year and 366 mile epa range. Will see if I can get a sweeter deal from the Mirai dealer. They are sitting on ~60 Mirais in 2 dealerships.
I travel 150 miles in half day twice a month for my rental property. So, the Mirai can cover that and more, due to its quick fill ups.

GRA
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Re: Toyota Mirai Fuel Cell

Sat Dec 02, 2017 4:02 pm

My understanding is that there's an active Facebook forum for the Mirai, so your operational questions would probably be best directed there.
As cwerdna noted, the open Mirai FCEV forum never developed much. As for road trips, look here to see if there are stations along the routes you need to travel, or will be anytime soon, as at the moment you're pretty much restricted to the major metro areas plus the I-5 and I-80 corridors: https://cafcp.org/stationmap

Be sure to use the "Filter By" button to remove all but the existing stations and maybe those in "commissioning" status which should appear in the fairly near term, although the latter category is very loose and the opening dates are often revised to later (CSU LA has been "Commissioning" for something like 18 months now, despite my attempt to get them to remove it. They did change its expected opening to "under review"). To see the supposedly current status of each station, look here: https://m.cafcp.org/ With a few exceptions, the full retail stations have been far more reliable than the demo (non-retail ones), although they sometimes run out of fuel or have other minor problems for a day or so that require owners to maintain a larger reserve than would otherwise be necessary, barring a nearby station for back-up. Given the still limited station density you should maintain enough of a reserve to get you to that back-up station, and maybe even the one beyond that.

You might also find this topic of use:
CA. retail H2 fuel stations
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=21315 as I announce each new Ca. station opening as well as future plans there.

When I asked at a Honda dealer to test drive a Clarity FCEV a couple of months back, I was also told there was a waiting list and it would be at least six months before I could get one (not that I was planning to). It's very odd, because while the Mirai has sold far more cars to date, I see Clarity FCEVs more often.
Last edited by GRA on Sat Dec 02, 2017 4:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
Posts: 7575
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Toyota Mirai Fuel Cell

Sat Dec 02, 2017 4:06 pm

Per IEVS, October U.S. Mirai sales/leases were 249 in November, 1,542 for the year.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

mmd
Posts: 3
Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2017 12:52 am

Re: Toyota Mirai Fuel Cell

Sat Dec 02, 2017 5:48 pm

GRA wrote:My understanding is that there's an active Facebook forum for the Mirai, so your operational questions would probably be best directed there.
As cwerdna noted, the open Mirai FCEV forum never developed much. As for road trips, look here to see if there are stations along the routes you need to travel, or will be anytime soon, as at the moment you're pretty much restricted to the major metro areas plus the I-5 and I-80 corridors: https://cafcp.org/stationmap

Be sure to use the "Filter By" button to remove all but the existing stations and maybe those in "commissioning" status which should appear in the fairly near term, although the latter category is very loose and the opening dates are often revised to later (CSU LA has been "Commissioning" for something like 18 months now, despite my attempt to get them to remove it. They did change its expected opening to "under review"). To see the supposedly current status of each station, look here: https://m.cafcp.org/ With a few exceptions, the full retail stations have been far more reliable than the demo (non-retail ones), although they sometimes run out of fuel or have other minor problems for a day or so that require owners to maintain a larger reserve than would otherwise be necessary, barring a nearby station for back-up. Given the still limited station density you should maintain enough of a reserve to get you to that back-up station, and maybe even the one beyond that.

You might also find this topic of use:
CA. retail H2 fuel stations
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=21315 as I announce each new Ca. station opening as well as future plans there.

When I asked at a Honda dealer to test drive a Clarity FCEV a couple of months back, I was also told there was a waiting list and it would be at least six months before I could get one (not that I was planning to). It's very odd, because while the Mirai has sold far more cars to date, I see Clarity FCEVs more often.

Thanks! Will check out the links.
I have been checking the cafcp.org map for few years. Progress is really slow. I rarely travel too far, but within California those ~30 stations are enough. Both Toyota and Honda also include 21 days ( 7 days per year) of "luxury" ;) rental from Avis in the lease for those really long drives.

BTW, Just saw news that the EV tax credit might have been killed. The Fuel cell tax redit of $8000 was killed end of 2016. I think, this might make the FCVs more competitive after the year end.

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