JasonA
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Location: Sylmar, CA

Re: Toyota Mirai Fuel Cell

Fri Feb 10, 2017 7:34 pm

So GRA.. when are we going to see you at one of our SoCal EV meets in a Mirai?? I mean...... it can make the trip no problem with all those stations and all the outages they are having :roll:

If you're such a believer, why not buy one? :roll:

You've been on this forum longer and BS'ing before I joined.... during this period I've...

Bought my Leaf (which I still have) -and hacked and modified

Bought My Rav4 EV (Which I still have) -and hacked and modified

Bought my Model S 70D (Which I LOVE!!) and starting to hack and modify

What do you do GRA?? You don't own any vehicles (or so you say).. Are you just an industry troll or an alter ego like EV Driver :lol:
2012 10kw Dual LQ cooled Brusa powered Leaf "Astro"
13kw Enphase System,SolarWorld Panels, QuickMountPV- ALL USA!!
2014 Rav4 "SuperRav"with JdeMO (CHAdeMO)
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TonyWilliams
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Re: Toyota Mirai Fuel Cell

Sat Feb 11, 2017 2:19 am

mtndrew1 wrote:" The warranty includes:

8-year or 100,000 mile warranty (whichever comes first) on key fuel cell components including the FC stack and power control unit; FC hydrogen tanks; hybrid battery pack and ECU; FC air compressor, boost converter and ECU; hybrid control module (power management control module); and hydrogen fueling ECU."


While this is admirable, I suspect they almost HAVE to provide such a warranty, since the first person that gets a bill for $30,000 to replace some component on the hydrogen car could make quite a stink on forums.

The same is true on EVs, by the way, which is why the state of California REQUIRES that EVs have a mandatory 8 year / 100.000 mile warranty on the "traction" battery (it's less clear why hybrids need a different 10 year / 150,000 mile warranty). Of note is that the retail price of the 42kWh battery in the 2012-2014 Rav4 EV is $36,000. Without a warranty, it is a throw away car if the battery fails. I suspect that the same is true about many of those expensive hydrogen components.

So, again, I wasn't suggesting that Toyota did NOT warranty these parts. I'm pointing out that you specially cannot get the Toyota Platinum extended warranty that is available on other cars for up to 10 years and 125,000 miles.

That is not available to the Toyota hydrogen cars (well, you can buy it; it just won't cover anything of value).

arnis
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Re: Toyota Mirai Fuel Cell

Sat Feb 11, 2017 8:45 am

TonyWilliams wrote:
mtndrew1 wrote:The same is true on EVs, by the way, which is why the state of California REQUIRES that EVs have a mandatory 8 year / 100.000 mile warranty on the "traction" battery (it's less clear why hybrids need a different 10 year / 150,000 mile warranty).


EV can't pollute when battery gets weaker/doesn't work.
Hybrid will pollute more than it was designed if battery fails.
Cars are almost always used for at least 10 years 150 000 miles.
No one will change hybrid's battery if "it only adds few MPGs".
Short range EVs <30kWh -- Medium range: 30-60kWh -- Long range: >60kWh
Charging: Trickle <3kW -- Normal 3-22kW -- Fast 50-100kW -- Supercharging >100kW

mtndrew1
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Re: Toyota Mirai Fuel Cell

Sat Feb 11, 2017 10:20 am

While the extended warranty thing is mildly curious I suppose, it's all very moot in my opinion.

1) Nobody is buying these things (very likely less than 1% of the tiny number of deliveries are purchases).
2) Very few are leasing these things.
3) The technology is fundamentally stupid.
4) These cars' depreciation post-lease will make the Leaf look like a Lexus in comparison and whoever scoops them up after lease will be just driving them into the ground. Or they'll rot and be crushed.
5) The business case for a warranty to cover the two year gap between the factory warranty and the Platinum warranty for a teeny amount of purchased cars is probably impossible to make.

I think this is more about the reality of the situation than any shady indicator by Toyota that these components are more prone to fail than any other ZEV. The whole Mirai project will be dead soon enough.
2015 Kia Soul EV+

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TonyWilliams
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Re: Toyota Mirai Fuel Cell

Sat Feb 11, 2017 10:31 am

arnis wrote:
TonyWilliams wrote:
mtndrew1 wrote:The same is true on EVs, by the way, which is why the state of California REQUIRES that EVs have a mandatory 8 year / 100.000 mile warranty on the "traction" battery (it's less clear why hybrids need a different 10 year / 150,000 mile warranty).


EV can't pollute when battery gets weaker/doesn't work.
Hybrid will pollute more than it was designed if battery fails.
Cars are almost always used for at least 10 years 150 000 miles.
No one will change hybrid's battery if "it only adds few MPGs".


EVs don't pollute, with or without a warranty.

GRA
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Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Toyota Mirai Fuel Cell

Sat Feb 11, 2017 3:45 pm

JasonA wrote:So GRA.. when are we going to see you at one of our SoCal EV meets in a Mirai?? I mean...... it can make the trip no problem with all those stations and all the outages they are having :roll:

If you're such a believer, why not buy one? :roll:

You've been on this forum longer and BS'ing before I joined.... during this period I've...

Bought my Leaf (which I still have) -and hacked and modified

Bought My Rav4 EV (Which I still have) -and hacked and modified

Bought my Model S 70D (Which I LOVE!!) and starting to hack and modify

What do you do GRA?? You don't own any vehicles (or so you say).. Are you just an industry troll or an alter ego like EV Driver :lol:

To take various points in order, I live in Norcal, so why on earth would I waste all that energy to drive to SoCal, a place where I have near zero interest in visiting (BTDT). I need to be able to go east, and while an FCEV or BEV will allow me to get to Tahoe, it won't allow me to get to Yosemite to which I travel more frequently (well, a Tesla would now, but only if I had $70k or so to waste on a car).

As to why not buy one, as I've written many, many times, I won't buy any AFV until they meet my needs at a reasonable price. I have zero interest in going through the whole early-adopter experience again, and will happily leave that to others who are more motivated and have more money to burn. Currently, only PHEVs approach that capability (although I still can't buy a small AWD PHEV CUV). Given how much I've cut my driving down in favor of more efficient and less polluting forms of transportation, it makes no economic sense to buy a PHEV now to handle the remainder while my current (14 year-old) car meets all those needs, if I can wait a few years and buy a full-time ZEV instead which will make economic sense (as no ZEV does for me now - whether BEV, FCEV, or PHFCEV makes no difference to me, as long as I can get where I need to go, when I need to go).

However, given my usage patterns what I'm really hoping for is that car-shared or rental ZEVs with the necessary performance and infrastructure, with/without autonomy and with acceptable operating costs, will arrive about the time I might need a new car, and I can simply forego car ownership altogether. That's my ultimate goal, and the one which makes the most sense from both an environmental and societal perspective. Whether or not you agree with my needs, goals, interests or decisions is irrelevant to me, just as mine should be irrelevant to you. What matters is that they work for each of us.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

JasonA
Posts: 564
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Re: Toyota Mirai Fuel Cell

Wed Feb 15, 2017 12:45 pm

The same reason you waste all this energy posting on this forum pushing the Mirai :roll:

Ohhh.. BTW...

Toyota Recalls ALL 2800+ Mirai's on the road!!! :lol:

http://www.businessinsider.com/r-toyota-to-recall-all-2800-mirai-fuel-cell-cars-on-the-road-2017-2

Hmmmm
2012 10kw Dual LQ cooled Brusa powered Leaf "Astro"
13kw Enphase System,SolarWorld Panels, QuickMountPV- ALL USA!!
2014 Rav4 "SuperRav"with JdeMO (CHAdeMO)
2015 MS-70D

GRA
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Re: Toyota Mirai Fuel Cell

Wed Feb 15, 2017 6:05 pm

JasonA wrote:The same reason you waste all this energy posting on this forum pushing the Mirai :roll:

I don't post "pushing" the Mirai, anymore than my posts providing info or discussing any other car (or AFV truck, or bus, or drone a/c etc.) are pushing them. I post info on them, for whoever might be interested, and am happy to discuss what I see as their advantages/disadvantages with people. I have no inherent bias towards or away from any AFV tech, as what suits a particular person is totally dependent on their individual circumstances.

However, it's no secret that I feel that FCEVs have an advantage over BEVs (at this time, given the necessary fueling infrastructure) as far as meeting the requirements and priorities of members of the general public, as opposed to EV early adopters who tend to populate forums such as this one. IMO, enthusiasts are rarely good at recognizing that their priorities aren't shared by everyone, and that in fact the general public's are usually completely different. I believe it's important to point this out.

OTOH, nothing in the above implies that I think FCEVs are yet ready for mass adoption, as prices remain too high, fueling infrastructure is lacking beyond a very limited area, and we simply don't know when/if sustainable H2 will be cost-competitive with fossil fuels, all problems which will need to be solved to make FCEVs mainstream. Similar issues still face PEVs, but they're closer to commercial (un-subsidized) viability for niche purposes (local cars), if not yet for general purpose cars.

JasonA wrote:Ohhh.. BTW...

Toyota Recalls ALL 2800+ Mirai's on the road!!! :lol:

http://www.businessinsider.com/r-toyota-to-recall-all-2800-mirai-fuel-cell-cars-on-the-road-2017-2

Hmmmm

Sounds like a pretty minor update, and other than the fact that you have to bring the car in to the dealer just like every other car other than Tesla, NBD.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GetOffYourGas
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Location: Syracuse, NY

Re: Toyota Mirai Fuel Cell

Thu Feb 16, 2017 6:14 am

GRA wrote:
JasonA wrote:The same reason you waste all this energy posting on this forum pushing the Mirai :roll:

I don't post "pushing" the Mirai, anymore than my posts providing info or discussing any other car (or AFV truck, or bus, or drone a/c etc.) are pushing them. I post info on them, for whoever might be interested, and am happy to discuss what I see as their advantages/disadvantages with people. I have no inherent bias towards or away from any AFV tech, as what suits a particular person is totally dependent on their individual circumstances.


It boggles my mind that you are constantly attacked by various members here as "pushing" a certain technology. I don't see it. I see you posting links to articles, brief recaps, and adding some opinions. In other words, sharing information. Isn't that what a forum is designed for? Especially one titled "Toyota Mirai Fuel Cell"? I don't get it.

Count me as one who tries to stay open to any option that can replace petroleum-based fuels. Keep on sharing what you find, and ignore the haters.
~Brian

EV Fleet:
2011 Torqeedo Travel 1003 electric outboard on a 22' sailboat
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2015 C-Max Energi (302A package)

WetEV
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Re: Toyota Mirai Fuel Cell

Thu Feb 16, 2017 6:22 am

GetOffYourGas wrote:Isn't that what a forum is designed for? Especially one titled "Toyota Mirai Fuel Cell"?


http://www.mytoyotamirai.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=2
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