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RegGuheert
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Re: Toyota Mirai Fuel Cell

Tue Apr 24, 2018 6:09 pm

GRA wrote:If correct, it certainly shows that they didn't evaluate their needs and desires well before buying.
Hopefully they will vocally spread their dissatisfaction with this new fiasco built purely from OPM so that others will not continue to buy into the H2 nonsense.
RegGuheert
2011 Leaf SL Demo vehicle
10K miles: Apr 14, 2013, 20K miles (55.7Ah): Aug 7, 2014, 30K miles (52.0Ah): Dec 30, 2015, 40K miles (49.8Ah): Feb 8, 2017, 50K miles (47.2Ah): Dec 7, 2017.
Enphase Inverter Measured MTBF: M190, M215, M250, S280

GRA
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Re: Toyota Mirai Fuel Cell

Tue Apr 24, 2018 6:13 pm

RegGuheert wrote:
GRA wrote:If correct, it certainly shows that they didn't evaluate their needs and desires well before buying.
Hopefully they will vocally spread their dissatisfaction with this new fiasco built purely from OPM so that others will not continue to buy into the H2 nonsense.

They are welcome to express their opinion and convince anyone they can, as are we all. Off to watch the Warriors/Spurs.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

smkettner
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Location: Orange County, CA

Re: Toyota Mirai Fuel Cell

Tue Apr 24, 2018 6:58 pm

GRA wrote:
RegGuheert wrote:
JasonA wrote:...neighbor got a deal on a Fugly Mirai and is like :? This fueling sucks! LOL.
I think it's funny that your neighbor hates the one and only "draw" of H2 FCVs! :lol:

If correct, it certainly shows that they didn't evaluate their needs and desires well before buying.
I thought HFC was for the masses of common people that wanted same fueling as an ICE vehicle?
This FCV is supposed to fit the needs same as an ICE so what would there be to evaluate?
In the quote there is no complaint of cost or lack of stations or lack of range.... just the the fueling sucks.
1 bar lost at 21,451 miles, 16 months.
2 bar lost at 35,339 miles, 25 months.
LEAF traded at 45,400 miles for a RAV4-EV

GRA
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Re: Toyota Mirai Fuel Cell

Wed Apr 25, 2018 5:53 pm

smkettner wrote:
GRA wrote:
RegGuheert wrote:I think it's funny that your neighbor hates the one and only "draw" of H2 FCVs! :lol:

If correct, it certainly shows that they didn't evaluate their needs and desires well before buying.
I thought HFC was for the masses of common people that wanted same fueling as an ICE vehicle?
This FCV is supposed to fit the needs same as an ICE so what would there be to evaluate?
In the quote there is no complaint of cost or lack of stations or lack of range.... just the the fueling sucks.

If home 'fueling' was a priority for the guy, why on earth would he choose an FCEV knowing that wasn't an option?!?! That's like someone buying a Miata and then complaining that they can't carry their child's little league team plus their gear in it. He should have gotten a PEV instead, and he's got lots of options. Or is this just one minor negative point for him, which he considered before buying and decided it wasn't a major priority, and he's otherwise happy with the car?

Every car I've ever bought or considered buying has had good and bad points, but I (and I assume most people) have weighed each of them before deciding which car does the best job of meeting my needs and desires. I'm assuming the guy didn't just throw darts at car pictures to choose which one to buy.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

smkettner
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Re: Toyota Mirai Fuel Cell

Wed Apr 25, 2018 6:23 pm

Maybe he was told refueling was same as his ICE. Then is wasn't.
1 bar lost at 21,451 miles, 16 months.
2 bar lost at 35,339 miles, 25 months.
LEAF traded at 45,400 miles for a RAV4-EV

GRA
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Re: Toyota Mirai Fuel Cell

Wed Apr 25, 2018 6:43 pm

smkettner wrote:Maybe he was told refueling was same as his ICE. Then is wasn't.

Seeing as how all the companies selling or leasing FCEVs are first checking to see if the potential customer has a convenient fueling station, that's pretty unlikely. And then, how did they ever manage to hear about the Mirai in the first place? It's not as if FCEVs are heavily advertised. Neither are PEVs, but I've seen far more ads for those than FCEVs, and they must have had some interest in FCEVs in the first place to even notice them; otherwise, why not just get a much cheaper Camry Hybrid with an extra seat, or a Prime at the same dealer? The story we got just doesn't hold up - either the Mirai buyer is an idiot, or else not being able to charge at home was a minor issue.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

User avatar
RegGuheert
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Re: Toyota Mirai Fuel Cell

Thu Apr 26, 2018 3:44 am

GRA wrote:
smkettner wrote:Maybe he was told refueling was same as his ICE. Then is wasn't.
Seeing as how all the companies selling or leasing FCEVs are first checking to see if the potential customer has a convenient fueling station, that's pretty unlikely. And then, how did they ever manage to hear about the Mirai in the first place? It's not as if FCEVs are heavily advertised. Neither are PEVs, but I've seen far more ads for those than FCEVs, and they must have had some interest in FCEVs in the first place to even notice them; otherwise, why not just get a much cheaper Camry Hybrid with an extra seat, or a Prime at the same dealer? The story we got just doesn't hold up - either the Mirai buyer is an idiot, or else not being able to charge at home was a minor issue.
Suffering from a bit of cognitive dissonance over this, are we, GRA? Your apologetics for this technology do not hold water.

Even if there is a station close to the owner or lessee of an H2 FCV does NOT imply that the refueling doesn't suck. It just means there is a station nearby.

- It says nothing about whether or not there is a convenient station in the normal direction of travel.
- It says nothing about whether or not the station is down for maintenance frequently or not.
- It says nothing about how many vehicles have been sold around that particular station by the various H2 automakers and therefore whether there are long waiting lines to get the fuel.
- It says nothing about whether there is fuel available when and where the owners need it when they take a trip.

The bottom line is this: This owner thought that with a steep discount on the vehicle and free fuel for the life of the lease, he could not go wrong. Unfortunately, the singular "benefit" of this technology turned out to be a drawback after all. That leaves H2 FCVs as having only drawbacks when compared with BEVs.

As I've said many times in the past, we need to relegate this technology to be used ONLY where it has clear advantages over all alternatives and quit trying to apply it where it does not fit, such as for personal transportation.
RegGuheert
2011 Leaf SL Demo vehicle
10K miles: Apr 14, 2013, 20K miles (55.7Ah): Aug 7, 2014, 30K miles (52.0Ah): Dec 30, 2015, 40K miles (49.8Ah): Feb 8, 2017, 50K miles (47.2Ah): Dec 7, 2017.
Enphase Inverter Measured MTBF: M190, M215, M250, S280

GlennD
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Re: Toyota Mirai Fuel Cell

Thu Apr 26, 2018 9:44 am

There was a Mira in front of me. The back is merely ugly, not like the front! Without the front I could live with the back.
2012 Cayenne Red SL traded for:
2013 Pearl White SL Premium
Traded for a Cirrus White 2014 Mercedes B (totaled)
2016 Urano Gray eGolf SEL w/ drive assist
Loved the VW but it sat too low for my old body
Back to a Cirrus White 2017 B250e

mtndrew1
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Re: Toyota Mirai Fuel Cell

Thu Apr 26, 2018 9:59 am

There are some good insights into FCEV refueling issues on the Edmunds long term website. They had a Mirai and now have a Clarity (and a Bolt and a Model 3).

https://www.edmunds.com/honda/clarity/2 ... road-test/

“"Using the H2 Station Finder app for live updates is key when it comes to knowing whether pumps are available or being serviced. There aren't many options out there. So pulling up to a pump to learn it's broken and now you have to drive across town, or several towns, to fill up is frustrating to say the least." — Bryn MacKinnon, manager, content operations”

“"I'll be honest, I don't stand by the filler when the Clarity is fueling. I lock it into place and then step around to the other side of the vehicle. I do this because the pressures at work are ... well ... explosive, and I'm convinced that if there's going to be a failure point it won't be the Honda's ridiculously over-armored tank, but the third-party pump. And I don't want to be standing near it when it goes. Of course this is irrational, and of course I stand by gas tanks filling with volatile chemicals that (as anyone who has watched YouTube knows) are prone to bursting into flames. So what's the problem? Am I a Luddite? Am I just old and frightened of new things? Whatever it is, the Clarity has thus far failed to confirm my fears, but the psychological block remains." — Will Kaufman”

“"Talk about range anxiety! I left last night with 95 miles remaining. When I left my house this morning, I had 83. By the time I filled up, it was down to 70. I tried to fill up at a local station, but it was out of fuel, even though the California Fuel Cell Partnership Station Map said that it was up and running. Not super accurate, obviously.
"This morning, I had to enlist Rex to help get it filled and it still took us about 30 minutes to figure the whole thing out. Rex and I had a hell of a time trying to get the pump to work. First, we couldn't get the nozzle to latch. When we did, the pump would just stop and we'd have to start the whole process over again. We tried both H35 and H70 settings (hydrogen pressure), and both settings would sort of half fill then stop. Between us both, we spent around $50 to fill the car back up.
"All in all, the infrastructure for this vehicle is just not there yet. I'd much rather have range anxiety in an electric vehicle than one that runs on hydrogen. I also had visions of the nozzle flying off at high velocity and the Hindenburg disaster as we filled up. It's going to take a lot more than a free fuel card to get people to really adopt this technology. That being said, it's neat to play with." — Abigail Bassett, senior director, video & social media”
2018 Tesla Model 3 Long Range

2013 Nissan Leaf S + QC sold with warranty pack replacement

2015 Kia Soul EV+ Lease returned 10/14/17 45,000 miles w/ 13.8% degradation.

GetOffYourGas
Posts: 1839
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2011 6:56 pm
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Location: Syracuse, NY

Re: Toyota Mirai Fuel Cell

Fri Apr 27, 2018 5:05 am

mtndrew1 wrote:"All in all, the infrastructure for this vehicle is just not there yet. I'd much rather have range anxiety in an electric vehicle than one that runs on hydrogen. I also had visions of the nozzle flying off at high velocity and the Hindenburg disaster as we filled up. It's going to take a lot more than a free fuel card to get people to really adopt this technology. That being said, it's neat to play with." — Abigail Bassett, senior director, video & social media”


Heck yeah. As slow as L1 is, at least it is everywhere. Most places you'd run out of charge are a short tow and an extension cord away from a 120V outlet. Hydrogen will never get to that level of availability.
~Brian

EV Fleet:
2011 Torqeedo Travel 1003 electric outboard on a 22' sailboat
2012 Leaf SV (traded for Bolt)
2015 C-Max Energi (302A package)
2017 Bolt Premier

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