finman100
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Re: Toyota Mirai Fuel Cell

Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:54 am

1) do u have an outlet? check. okay you're good to go EV.

2) do you have a hydrogen set-up to produce pressurized gaseous fuel? no? okay see question one.

Yes, it IS a shorter list of questions. huh. imagine that.

It's completely laughable that a fuel cell POS has LESS restrictions than a simple EV. Laugh-a-bull.
Albany, Oregon
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WetEV
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Re: Toyota Mirai Fuel Cell

Thu Aug 02, 2018 12:46 pm

GRA wrote:I often feel much the same way having to repeat the same arguments over and over again, with total lack of comprehension on the other side, but I persevere.


If you had actual experience in owning a BEV, you might understand the "other side's" arguments, and why they don't agree with you...
WetEV
#49
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WetEV
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Re: Toyota Mirai Fuel Cell

Thu Aug 02, 2018 1:29 pm

GRA wrote:
WetEV wrote:
GRA wrote:The question is will that always be the case?

Yes, if you do the math. Fixed fuel cells and BEVs are a better deal. Likely to stay so, as well. The reason is efficiency. The BEV can charge off of excess renewable production 80+% of the time, at 90+% efficiency. The fixed fuel cell can supply the rest of the time, and while fixed fuel cell efficiency is poor, perhaps 50% round trip at best, is better than a fuel cell efficiency in a FCEV, due to scale factors and heat recovery. Notice that the poor efficiency is 100% of the time with FCEVs, and only less than 20% with BEVs.

OTOH, BEV efficiency drops considerably when they have to provide CHP


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CHP

Hmm... Perhaps cabin heat??


If cabin heat, a BEV is always better than a FCEV. Do the math. Sure, the difference can be smaller when waste heat can be used. Most of heat from a fuel cell is wasted, most of the time, and will not be used. Advantage BEV.

Image

GRA wrote:bringing operational advantages/disadvantages more to the fore.


A BEV is more convenient for most driving. You really need to commute with a BEV for a while to understand, GRA, just how nice it is to not have to take time out of a busy day to stop at a gasoline station. Or hydrogen station. Other than for a few people that only drive long distances, advantage BEV.
WetEV
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Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
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User avatar
jlv
Posts: 862
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Leaf Number: 424487
Location: Massachusetts

Re: Toyota Mirai Fuel Cell

Thu Aug 02, 2018 1:32 pm

GRA wrote:Every time a newbie comes to MNL and ask whether a LEAF or some other BEV will work for them, we have to play 20 questions with them, where they live, how far do they need to drive, for how long (so we need to tell them about degradation and SoC range), how fast, what's the climate like, what kind of housing do they live in (how will they charge and where), and on and on.

But that's because they are asking about a LEAF, with either restricted range or battery pack deficiencies.

You don't need to worry about such things with a Bolt or a Tesla. That will likely be true for any other BEV with decent range.
Last edited by jlv on Thu Aug 02, 2018 6:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
'13 SL+Prem (mfg 12/13, leased 4/14, bought 5/17) 33K miTesla S 75D (3/17) 27K mi
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GRA
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Re: Toyota Mirai Fuel Cell

Thu Aug 02, 2018 2:25 pm

rcm4453 wrote:Range and HVAC use are becoming less of a concern with the 200+ mile range BEVs. All you really have to learn how to do is plug it in when you get home and unplug it when you head off to work, not that hard really.

Range/HVAC use are LESS of a concern, not ZERO concern, which is what they are with ICEs and would be with FCEVs. As BEV range increases and the charging infrastructure (QC and otherwise) continues to build and increases its speed, we hope that eventually they will no longer be of any concern. We aren't there yet. As I've pointed out repeatedly, the U.S. isn't the world, and most of the world can't charge at home. To quote from the McKinsey report I've referenced elsewhere:
Only 40 percent of European and 30 percent of Chinese EV owners have access to private parking and wall charging, versus 75 percent of US EV owners.
https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=26273&p=533418&hilit=mckinsey#p533418

Note that these numbers refer to PEV owners, not the public as a whole, so these % are inflated and reflect self-selection: the people buying EVs now are the ones who can best take advantage of them.
Last edited by GRA on Thu Aug 02, 2018 3:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
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Re: Toyota Mirai Fuel Cell

Thu Aug 02, 2018 2:35 pm

finman100 wrote:1) do u have an outlet? check. okay you're good to go EV.

Just a bit more complex than that, isn't it? Do you have an outlet located where you need it? [In my case, no]. Do you need L2 (if you need long range on a daily basis, you do), and if so, do you have such an outlet? If not, how much hassle will it be for you to pull a permit and get an electrician to add one for you? [As I rent, and the service capacity is limited, major] Do you have access to off-peak rates, or will using more electricity bump you up to a higher tier where you're paying more than the price of gasoline? [See rent].

2) do you have a hydrogen set-up to produce pressurized gaseous fuel? no? okay see question one.[/quote]
Do you have an H2 station near your home, work or conveniently en route, just like you figure when buying gas now? The type of housing you live in is irrelevant, as is where you work.

finman100 wrote:Yes, it IS a shorter list of questions. huh. imagine that.

It's completely laughable that a fuel cell POS has LESS restrictions than a simple EV. Laugh-a-bull.

You're right, it is laughable, but the restrictions work the other way (always assuming that the H2 stations are built, but then if you don't have a convenient one you have no business buying or leasing an FCEV).
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
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Re: Toyota Mirai Fuel Cell

Thu Aug 02, 2018 2:51 pm

WetEV wrote:
GRA wrote:I often feel much the same way having to repeat the same arguments over and over again, with total lack of comprehension on the other side, but I persevere.


If you had actual experience in owning a BEV, you might understand the "other side's" arguments, and why they don't agree with you...

To repeat, actual experience of owning one isn't going to tell me what I already know, that a BEV is less convenient for me (and many other people) given my/our situation(s). If I know I need a CUV, how is owning a two-seat sports car going to tell me anything useful?

For the people for whom a BEV can work now, terrific, but how does that relate to my needs? Would owning a BEV magically install an outlet that wouldn't require me to run an extension cord out a window or door (year-round, including the heating season) in order to charge it (L1 only)? No.

Would it magically convince my landlord to pay to install such an outlet? No.

Would it magically upgrade the service entrance and run an L2 circuit and receptacle to where I need it? No.

Would it magically reduce the price of my closest public L2 stations so that they are cheaper than buying gasoline? No.

Would it magically move those stations which are better priced closer to me so that they are convenient? No.

Would it magically build QC stations where I need them to get to the places I wish to drive to? No.

Would the range magically increase and charging times magically decrease so that I'd waste far less of my free time sitting around charging the car on trips, instead of enjoying the recreation I took the trip for? No.

So tell, me, what exactly will I learn by owning a BEV that will make it more useful to me, that I can't already determine just by looking at my situation, reading spec sheets, test driving BEVs, and reading owner and magazine reports?
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
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Re: Toyota Mirai Fuel Cell

Thu Aug 02, 2018 3:56 pm

jlv wrote:
GRA wrote:Every time a newbie comes to MNL and ask whether a LEAF or some other BEV will work for them, we have to play 20 questions with them, where they live, how far do they need to drive, for how long (so we need to tell them about degradation and SoC range), how fast, what's the climate like, what kind of housing do they live in (how will they charge and where), and on and on.

But that's they are asking about a LEAF, with either restricted range or battery pack deficiencies.

You don't need to worry about such things with a Bolt or a Tesla. That will likely be true for any other BEV with decent range.

If you plan to do anything more than local driving, you still need to know this stuff. You need to know about QC speeds and taper points, the effects of speed and temp, ATM or not, where and how you'll charge etc.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
Posts: 9265
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
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Re: Toyota Mirai Fuel Cell

Thu Aug 02, 2018 3:58 pm

WetEV wrote:
GRA wrote:
WetEV wrote:Yes, if you do the math. Fixed fuel cells and BEVs are a better deal. Likely to stay so, as well. The reason is efficiency. The BEV can charge off of excess renewable production 80+% of the time, at 90+% efficiency. The fixed fuel cell can supply the rest of the time, and while fixed fuel cell efficiency is poor, perhaps 50% round trip at best, is better than a fuel cell efficiency in a FCEV, due to scale factors and heat recovery. Notice that the poor efficiency is 100% of the time with FCEVs, and only less than 20% with BEVs.

OTOH, BEV efficiency drops considerably when they have to provide CHP


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CHP

Hmm... Perhaps cabin heat??


If cabin heat, a BEV is always better than a FCEV. Do the math. Sure, the difference can be smaller when waste heat can be used. Most of heat from a fuel cell is wasted, most of the time, and will not be used. Advantage BEV.

As I've pointed out, few people will care.

WetEV wrote:Image

GRA wrote:bringing operational advantages/disadvantages more to the fore.


A BEV is more convenient for most driving. You really need to commute with a BEV for a while to understand, GRA, just how nice it is to not have to take time out of a busy day to stop at a gasoline station. Or hydrogen station. Other than for a few people that only drive long distances, advantage BEV.

See my other post. For the umpteenth time. most of the world's drivers do not live in detached single family homes with dedicated garages served by electricity, i.e. they do not have access to home charging. Like them, I would have to take more time out of my schedule to charge a BEV than I would to get gas. And my commute is done on my ZEV bicycle - unlike a car, it really does provide door to door service, as I carry it out my front door and then carry it inside the door at work :lol: . As my bike weighs 30 lb. and a BEV like a LEAF weighs 3,400, there really is no comparison re efficiency.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
Posts: 9265
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Toyota Mirai Fuel Cell

Thu Aug 02, 2018 4:36 pm

Just to include some occasional Mirai news in the Mirai thread, per IEVS 137 Mirais were sold in the U.S. in July, making 880 for the year. Last YTD it was 790, so they're up a bit despite the near stagnation in station openings, and they have more competition from the Clarity now.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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