WetEV
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Re: Toyota Mirai Fuel Cell

Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:47 pm

GRA wrote:
WetEV wrote:... a BEV is always better than a FCEV. Do the math. Sure, the difference can be smaller when waste heat can be used. Most of heat from a fuel cell is wasted, most of the time, and will not be used. Advantage BEV.

As I've pointed out, few people will care.


So they will not care. Interesting, EVgo and Blink charge more for electric power than gasoline, and that is a "BEV killer", according to you. Hydrogen is going to be 3 to 4 times as much as EVgo and Blink, and no one will care. Interesting. Not convincing.

GRA wrote:
WetEV wrote:Image


bringing operational advantages/disadvantages more to the fore.


A BEV is more convenient for most driving. You really need to commute with a BEV for a while to understand, GRA, just how nice it is to not have to take time out of a busy day to stop at a gasoline station. Or hydrogen station. Other than for a few people that only drive long distances, advantage BEV.[/quote]

GRA wrote:most of the world's drivers do not live in detached single family homes with dedicated garages served by electricity, i.e. they do not have access to home charging.


For the umpteenth time, home charging isn't limited to "detached single family homes with dedicated garages served by electricity". Have a wall you park near? How about just a curb?

Image

Image

Image
WetEV
#49
Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
2012 Leaf SL Red (Totaled)
2014 Leaf SL Red

Oils4AsphaultOnly
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Re: Toyota Mirai Fuel Cell

Thu Aug 02, 2018 9:36 pm

GRA wrote:
WetEV wrote:
GRA wrote:I often feel much the same way having to repeat the same arguments over and over again, with total lack of comprehension on the other side, but I persevere.


If you had actual experience in owning a BEV, you might understand the "other side's" arguments, and why they don't agree with you...

To repeat, actual experience of owning one isn't going to tell me what I already know, that a BEV is less convenient for me (and many other people) given my/our situation(s). If I know I need a CUV, how is owning a two-seat sports car going to tell me anything useful?

For the people for whom a BEV can work now, terrific, but how does that relate to my needs? Would owning a BEV magically install an outlet that wouldn't require me to run an extension cord out a window or door (year-round, including the heating season) in order to charge it (L1 only)? No.

Would it magically convince my landlord to pay to install such an outlet? No.

Would it magically upgrade the service entrance and run an L2 circuit and receptacle to where I need it? No.

Would it magically reduce the price of my closest public L2 stations so that they are cheaper than buying gasoline? No.

Would it magically move those stations which are better priced closer to me so that they are convenient? No.

Would it magically build QC stations where I need them to get to the places I wish to drive to? No.

Would the range magically increase and charging times magically decrease so that I'd waste far less of my free time sitting around charging the car on trips, instead of enjoying the recreation I took the trip for? No.

So tell, me, what exactly will I learn by owning a BEV that will make it more useful to me, that I can't already determine just by looking at my situation, reading spec sheets, test driving BEVs, and reading owner and magazine reports?


If you're considering an extension cord, then you can at least park near your unit. Is it dedicated parking? If so, then I love how you worded your issues: "convince my landlord to pay"

As opposed to pay for it yourself, which you've been allowed to do since 2014 as a CA resident. The fueling savings usually is enough to justify the expense.

As for the receptacle run, get multiple quotes, then decide if it's too expensive. Not the other way around. A 220V 15A receptacle is all that's needed for most people's daily commutes.

All the other "issues" become muted when you have at home (as opposed to in-garage) charging. Besides, many grocery stores now have EVSE's available for their patrons. I assume you have to buy groceries at least once a week?

"So tell, me, what exactly will I learn by owning a BEV" - you'll learn that unlike your need for an SUV, living with a BEV isn't a physical limitation, but a psychological one. Stopping by a gas station regularly is a terrible waste of time.
:: Model 3 LR :: acquired 9 May '18
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WetEV
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Re: Toyota Mirai Fuel Cell

Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:15 am

GRA wrote:Would it magically reduce the price of my closest public L2 stations so that they are cheaper than buying gasoline? No.


Renewable hydrogen is likely to be three times as expensive as an L2 station. Or more.
WetEV
#49
Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
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GlennD
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Re: Toyota Mirai Fuel Cell

Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:58 am

Putting GRA on my ignore list does not work when people Quote him. Otherwise the forum just mentions that he posted.
2012 Cayenne Red SL traded for:
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Back to a Cirrus White 2017 B250e

GRA
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Re: Toyota Mirai Fuel Cell

Fri Aug 03, 2018 4:39 pm

WetEV wrote:
GRA wrote:
WetEV wrote:... a BEV is always better than a FCEV. Do the math. Sure, the difference can be smaller when waste heat can be used. Most of heat from a fuel cell is wasted, most of the time, and will not be used. Advantage BEV.

As I've pointed out, few people will care.

So they will not care. Interesting, EVgo and Blink charge more for electric power than gasoline, and that is a "BEV killer", according to you. Hydrogen is going to be 3 to 4 times as much as EVgo and Blink, and no one will care. Interesting. Not convincing.

As I've said, H2 must be price-competitive with gas. It doesn't have to be superior. But BEVs are different, as long as they take far longer to replenish their energy, they have to be cheaper than gas. Otherwise, there's no advantage for the average person who has to drive to charge at a public station, just as they do with an ICE or FCE), and that's the situation for most of the world's drivers. AVs with public wireless charging can eliminate that disadvantage for local use, at some loss of efficiency due to both charging and in deadhead miles, but aside from the air pollution benefits which most people don't care all that much about unless smog noticeably affects them personally, what's the compelling interest for the average person to switch?

WetEV wrote:A BEV is more convenient for most driving. You really need to commute with a BEV for a while to understand, GRA, just how nice it is to not have to take time out of a busy day to stop at a gasoline station. Or hydrogen station. Other than for a few people that only drive long distances, advantage BEV.

See my other post. A BEV is more convient than an ICE for routine local use, provided you have a guaranteed place to charge it at home or work[/i]; otherwise not. I commute just fine without having to take time out of a busy day to stop at a gas station without owning a BEV. My ZEV cost me $250, used, and saves me lots on health care. Of course, for many longer intra-regional trips I do use a very energy-efficient ZEV (on a passenger-mile basis) along with my personal ZEV: https://goo.gl/images/PB7CB3

GRA wrote:most of the world's drivers do not live in detached single family homes with dedicated garages served by electricity, i.e. they do not have access to home charging.

For the umpteenth time, home charging isn't limited to "detached single family homes with dedicated garages served by electricity". Have a wall you park near? How about just a curb?

Image

Image

Image[/quote]

Very nice. For the umpteenth time, just who is going to pay for this in a rental housing property? You keep harking back to the convenience advantages of home charging, so how does a Tesla destination charger at a hotel have anything to do with that?
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
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Re: Toyota Mirai Fuel Cell

Fri Aug 03, 2018 4:54 pm

Oils4AsphaultOnly wrote:
GRA wrote:
WetEV wrote:
If you had actual experience in owning a BEV, you might understand the "other side's" arguments, and why they don't agree with you...

To repeat, actual experience of owning one isn't going to tell me what I already know, that a BEV is less convenient for me (and many other people) given my/our situation(s). If I know I need a CUV, how is owning a two-seat sports car going to tell me anything useful?

For the people for whom a BEV can work now, terrific, but how does that relate to my needs? Would owning a BEV magically install an outlet that wouldn't require me to run an extension cord out a window or door (year-round, including the heating season) in order to charge it (L1 only)? No.

Would it magically convince my landlord to pay to install such an outlet? No.

Would it magically upgrade the service entrance and run an L2 circuit and receptacle to where I need it? No.

Would it magically reduce the price of my closest public L2 stations so that they are cheaper than buying gasoline? No.

Would it magically move those stations which are better priced closer to me so that they are convenient? No.

Would it magically build QC stations where I need them to get to the places I wish to drive to? No.

Would the range magically increase and charging times magically decrease so that I'd waste far less of my free time sitting around charging the car on trips, instead of enjoying the recreation I took the trip for? No.

So tell, me, what exactly will I learn by owning a BEV that will make it more useful to me, that I can't already determine just by looking at my situation, reading spec sheets, test driving BEVs, and reading owner and magazine reports?


If you're considering an extension cord, then you can at least park near your unit. Is it dedicated parking? If so, then I love how you worded your issues: "convince my landlord to pay"

As opposed to pay for it yourself, which you've been allowed to do since 2014 as a CA resident. The fueling savings usually is enough to justify the expense.

I've talked about it with him. Unfortunately all the wiring runs from the main house, which is where the only meter is (utilities are included in rent since there's now ay to bill separately), the service entrance can't handle the load, and it's 120V only at the moment. In addition, since I commute and travel locally by bike, intra-regionally by electric mass transit and only need a car for trips, a BEV simply doesn't benefit me for now given their other limitations (range and infrastructure). Be that as it may, I'm trying to negotiate a long-term lease with him that would justify me paying to do all that work and/or adding solar when and if BEVs/infrastructure improves to the point that they might meet my needs. but the far simpler and cheaper option would be that affordable and convenient public charging would bebuilt nearby, saving all the hassle and expense.

Oils4AsphaultOnly wrote:As for the receptacle run, get multiple quotes, then decide if it's too expensive. Not the other way around. A 220V 15A receptacle is all that's needed for most people's daily commutes

See above for the numerous reasons that's inapplicable now.

Oils4AsphaultOnly wrote:All the other "issues" become muted when you have at home (as opposed to in-garage) charging. Besides, many grocery stores now have EVSE's available for their patrons. I assume you have to buy groceries at least once a week?

More than that. My grocery store is five block away, and I walk there and back. I also walk to my bank, barber, dry cleaner, post office, library, dentist and virtually every other routine errand, as they're all within that 5 block radius - many are within two blocks. I chose to live in this location specifically because I wouldn't need to use my car for anything routine.See what I mean about a BEV not being of any advantage to me for local use?

Oils4AsphaultOnly wrote:"So tell, me, what exactly will I learn by owning a BEV" - you'll learn that unlike your need for an SUV, living with a BEV isn't a physical limitation, but a psychological one. Stopping by a gas station regularly is a terrible waste of time.

See above. My gas station visits tend to be months apart.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

Oils4AsphaultOnly
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Re: Toyota Mirai Fuel Cell

Fri Aug 03, 2018 8:12 pm

GRA wrote:
Oils4AsphaultOnly wrote:
GRA wrote:To repeat, actual experience of owning one isn't going to tell me what I already know, that a BEV is less convenient for me (and many other people) given my/our situation(s). If I know I need a CUV, how is owning a two-seat sports car going to tell me anything useful?

For the people for whom a BEV can work now, terrific, but how does that relate to my needs? Would owning a BEV magically install an outlet that wouldn't require me to run an extension cord out a window or door (year-round, including the heating season) in order to charge it (L1 only)? No.

Would it magically convince my landlord to pay to install such an outlet? No.

Would it magically upgrade the service entrance and run an L2 circuit and receptacle to where I need it? No.

Would it magically reduce the price of my closest public L2 stations so that they are cheaper than buying gasoline? No.

Would it magically move those stations which are better priced closer to me so that they are convenient? No.

Would it magically build QC stations where I need them to get to the places I wish to drive to? No.

Would the range magically increase and charging times magically decrease so that I'd waste far less of my free time sitting around charging the car on trips, instead of enjoying the recreation I took the trip for? No.

So tell, me, what exactly will I learn by owning a BEV that will make it more useful to me, that I can't already determine just by looking at my situation, reading spec sheets, test driving BEVs, and reading owner and magazine reports?


If you're considering an extension cord, then you can at least park near your unit. Is it dedicated parking? If so, then I love how you worded your issues: "convince my landlord to pay"

As opposed to pay for it yourself, which you've been allowed to do since 2014 as a CA resident. The fueling savings usually is enough to justify the expense.

I've talked about it with him. Unfortunately all the wiring runs from the main house, which is where the only meter is (utilities are included in rent since there's now ay to bill separately), the service entrance can't handle the load, and it's 120V only at the moment. In addition, since I commute and travel locally by bike, intra-regionally by electric mass transit and only need a car for trips, a BEV simply doesn't benefit me for now given their other limitations (range and infrastructure). Be that as it may, I'm trying to negotiate a long-term lease with him that would justify me paying to do all that work and/or adding solar when and if BEVs/infrastructure improves to the point that they might meet my needs. but the far simpler and cheaper option would be that affordable and convenient public charging would bebuilt nearby, saving all the hassle and expense.

Oils4AsphaultOnly wrote:As for the receptacle run, get multiple quotes, then decide if it's too expensive. Not the other way around. A 220V 15A receptacle is all that's needed for most people's daily commutes

See above for the numerous reasons that's inapplicable now.

Oils4AsphaultOnly wrote:All the other "issues" become muted when you have at home (as opposed to in-garage) charging. Besides, many grocery stores now have EVSE's available for their patrons. I assume you have to buy groceries at least once a week?

More than that. My grocery store is five block away, and I walk there and back. I also walk to my bank, barber, dry cleaner, post office, library, dentist and virtually every other routine errand, as they're all within that 5 block radius - many are within two blocks. I chose to live in this location specifically because I wouldn't need to use my car for anything routine.See what I mean about a BEV not being of any advantage to me for local use?

Oils4AsphaultOnly wrote:"So tell, me, what exactly will I learn by owning a BEV" - you'll learn that unlike your need for an SUV, living with a BEV isn't a physical limitation, but a psychological one. Stopping by a gas station regularly is a terrible waste of time.

See above. My gas station visits tend to be months apart.


You, sir, do NOT need a vehicle. This whole BEV vs ICE vs FCEV argument is pointless in your position. The lowest emission solution for your situation is to continue biking/walking/mass-transit to all your destinations and then keeping your existing vehicle for all your long range needs (or RENTING one if it's infrequent enough - maybe Zipcar?).

Your situation is unique in that it needs to weigh far more than the emissions and fueling convenience of the technologies in question and factor in the production costs and maintenance interval of the vehicles as well before determining what is "best".

Funny enough, in your situation, where your fueling intervals are months apart, an FCEV is actually NOT a viable solution, since much of your "fuel" would have leaked before you make much use of it. A CNG (Honda Civic CNG) would be your lowest emission solution, since it's the lowest emission combustion-based vehicle with a somewhat decent fueling infrastructure. A state-less BEV like a Bolt could also work, since it won't vampire drain like a Tesla would, and so you can keep it parked at 70% most of the time.

Although an ICE won't need to be fueled often, it still needs maintenance, and the fuel has to be stirred to keep from going stale. Really your use case is NOT anywhere near normal for the rest of the nation (don't try to be cute and consider the "worldwide" population as that's just BS).

Having written all that, I now see that you're trolling. Your transportation arrangement puts you in no position to argue with people who live in a way that reflects the habits of MOST of the nation. I now understand why your arguments seemed specious, because they were all baseless and without any grounding reality. It's the reason why "the other side" lacks comprehension, because there's nothing to comprehend other than your desire to stir the pot.

At this point, I anticipate that you'll retort with how you don't need direct experience to understand logical concepts. I will put you on my ignore list if that's what you truly believe.

Are you a bot?
:: Model 3 LR :: acquired 9 May '18
:: Leaf S30 :: build date: Sep '16 :: purchased: Nov '16
Date - Miles / GIDs:
May '17 - 7300 mi / 363
Feb '18 - 20.5k mi / 333

WetEV
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Re: Toyota Mirai Fuel Cell

Fri Aug 03, 2018 8:43 pm

GRA wrote:Very nice. For the umpteenth time, just who is going to pay for this in a rental housing property? You keep harking back to the convenience advantages of home charging, so how does a Tesla destination charger at a hotel have anything to do with that?


Now, or in decades in the future?

Now I'd guess only people in fairly high end rental properties are likely to afford BEVs. Even the LEAF is not an cheap car. Remember, where is the next doubling of EV sales coming from?

It would seem to me once many of the cars on the road were BEVs that landlords would need to start to offer charge stations to attract and hold good clients. Similar priced and requires installation appliances are fairly close to universal, but didn't used to be: like indoor plumbing, water heaters and refrigerators. While in Massachusetts, I rented a hundred year old house. The kitchen had been remodeled in the 1940's to add space for a refrigerator. The original coal furnace had been disconnected, and replaced by a gas boiler and a gas fired water heater was added. Some much older houses had been remodeled to add toilets, sinks and such.

Change happens. One tiny step at a time.

Low rent properties with 120V only service are not a problem likely to constrain BEV growth for decades to come. Unlike the high cost of hydrogen.

BTW: I was looking for assorted pictures of charging stations outdoors. If you owned a Tesla, and didn't have a garage, you might have something like that installed at home.
WetEV
#49
Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
2012 Leaf SL Red (Totaled)
2014 Leaf SL Red

SageBrush
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Re: Toyota Mirai Fuel Cell

Fri Aug 03, 2018 11:38 pm

Oils4AsphaultOnly wrote:Having written all that, I now see that you're trolling. Your transportation arrangement puts you in no position to argue with people who live in a way that reflects the habits of MOST of the nation. I now understand why your arguments seemed specious, because they were all baseless and without any grounding reality. It's the reason why "the other side" lacks comprehension, because there's nothing to comprehend other than your desire to stir the pot.
He has been on my ignore list for months, and I see no reason to change my decision. I don't think he is a troll, just a lonely guy with good intentions and a stubborn streak who wants to talk about himself incessantly and gain some validation from the internet. I've known more than a few smart, young progressive hippies who ended up like him as they grew older. It may yet happen to me.

He has no good reason to be in this thread except to talk about himself. I'm glad that he has solved a lot of his personal transport in an environmental manner and in his shoes I would be looking for ways to solve the remainder. Other threads, perhaps other forums.

I actually empathize with him somewhat, but constructive, fruitful discussion is just not going to happen. He is too myopic to accept the obvious: the large majority of people considering an EV do not live like him; do not want to live like him; are not able to live like him; and do not share his vacation preferences. He is like a deaf man arguing with the blind community that Braille is crap because it does not serve his needs.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
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GRA
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Re: Toyota Mirai Fuel Cell

Sat Aug 04, 2018 3:46 pm

WetEV wrote:
GRA wrote:Would it magically reduce the price of my closest public L2 stations so that they are cheaper than buying gasoline? No.


Renewable hydrogen is likely to be three times as expensive as an L2 station. Or more.

We're not concerned with what's 'likely', we're concerned with what it will be. At the moment, public for-profit L2 stations in the U.S. aren't profitable unless they charge more than the price of gasoline. H2 is also currently non-competitive with gas, and more expensive than L2. The price of H2 is coming down (cheapest in California is the $9.99/kg at Air Products stations), but that's only 33% renewable. The DoE's early market H2 goal is $7gge (gallons of gas equivalent) and with current California gas prices ($3.62 avg, today) I imagine $10/kg. meets that standard easily, assuming a typical 30 mpg ICE. HEVs do a lot better than a conventional ICE, but then they're only a small % of the fleet and not ZEV. The DoE's H2 goal is $4gge (untaxed)., but I don't remember if that's for 100% renewable H2 or not, and 100% renewable must be the ultimate end game. See
Hydrogen Production & Delivery Program
- Plenary Presentation
https://www.hydrogen.energy.gov/pdfs/review17/pd000_miller_2017_o.pdf

That's for the U.S. $10/kg. would already be cost competitive with gas in many if not most European countries, in fact it would be cheaper. Now, since almost this entire discussion belongs in the H2 and FCEV topic instead of here. if you feel the need to reply, how about doing it there?
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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