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Re: Official Tesla Model 3 thread

Sat Sep 08, 2018 1:22 pm

:roll:

Oils4AsphaultOnly
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Re: Official Tesla Model 3 thread

Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:01 am

GRA wrote:
lpickup wrote:Guy, you effectively raised the same concern. And particularly in the case of the first option (having it assigned to the wheel itself) where the alternate function is the cruise control speed, I think the concern is greater, at least in the case of a rapid slow down, as the car does tend to slow itself down pretty quickly if you adjust the cruise speed down. It's a little more gentle on the speed up side, and since it's traffic aware, it's not like it's going to plow into the car ahead of you. But still it's a valid concern. However, I'm pretty certain it doesn't rise to the level of a critical, dangerous situation, particularly if the down direction means more regen. In this case, the driver intends for the car to slow down more rapidly, and this is going to be the end result whether it's in TACC mode or not. Besides, I don't think the mental gymnastics are too overwhelming. When I'm in TACC mode I am simply not thinking about regen. The car is already doing all the work. And when I'm not in TACC mode, I'm definitely aware that I'm controlling the speed and not the thumbwheel. I have a harder time remembering whether the voice command is triggered by pressing the left or right wheel.

For me personally, I've come to the conclusion that I simply won't use TACC on any car until such time as that particular model car has L4 autonomy, with the manufacturer accepting responsibility for any injuries/accidents resulting from the failure of those systems. The problem is TACC is currently in that in-between range of reliability where it works most of the time, which lulls people into a false sense of security and thus to trust it, without being reliable enough (six 9s minimum, with 7 or 8 preferred) for me to trust my safety to it. With normal CC I know that if I stop paying attention and don't take action I will rear end any car I overtake, so mental/physical disengagement from driving while using it is simply unthinkable (for me; obviously some people do so, with the inevitable result). I'd love to say that I'm one of the people who will be the exception to the rule when it comes to TACC, but I don't consider it justifiable to risk myself or others if I'm (almost inevitably) proven wrong: the research in this area that virtually everyone's susceptible to automation bias/complacency is overwhelming: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automation_bias#Automation_failure_and_%22learned_carelessness%22


In case anyone else doesn't know, GRA doesn't own a Tesla, nor does s/he have any practical experience with one. The above is exhibit A of behavior that some consider trolling.
:: Model 3 LR :: acquired 9 May '18
:: Leaf S30 :: build date: Sep '16 :: purchased: Nov '16
Date - Miles / GIDs:
May '17 - 7300 mi / 363
Feb '18 - 20.5k mi / 333

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lpickup
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Re: Official Tesla Model 3 thread

Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:26 am

Oils4AsphaultOnly wrote:In case anyone else doesn't know, GRA doesn't own a Tesla, nor does s/he have any practical experience with one. The above is exhibit A of behavior that some consider trolling.


I disagree. Guy brings some good discussion to the table here. He's not just coming in and dissing Tesla for whatever reason he can find that will cause the stock price to drop. Hey may be more critical of Tesla than supportive, but he backs those opinions up with valid reasons. As Tesla fans and owners, we should never consider the cars flawless and perfect, because they are not. Tesla would do well to take well reasoned negative feedback into consideration to improve their products.
...Lance

Deep Blue Metallic 2018 Tesla Model 3 (31849) (delivered: 7/13/18)
Coulis Red 2016 SV (312310) (bought: 12/23/16 sold: 7/5/18)
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SageBrush
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Re: Official Tesla Model 3 thread

Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:35 am

lpickup wrote: Tesla would do well to take well reasoned negative feedback into consideration to improve their products.

Feedback from a non-owner ?
TACC "concerns" from someone who has never used TACC ?
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
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-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

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lpickup
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Re: Official Tesla Model 3 thread

Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:48 am

SageBrush wrote:
lpickup wrote: Tesla would do well to take well reasoned negative feedback into consideration to improve their products.

Feedback from a non-owner ?
TACC "concerns" from someone who has never used TACC ?


Yeah, why not? I was scared to death of TACC myself until I was able to actually use it for several weeks and let it earn my trust (I had constantly been "chickening out" and hitting the brakes). Even now there are certain situations where I am at highway speed and see traffic stopped ahead and wonder if TACC "sees" this or not.

Guy said he had concerns about the safety of TACC. This is his opinion, and I consider it valid. He didn't say Tesla's implementation of TACC sucks and the competition is perfect. So it is a good time to point out (at least I think this is the case) is that if he doesn't trust TACC, he's probably not going to trust EAP, and therefore he shouldn't buy the EAP option, and therefore he is only going to get regular cruise control. And then his right scroll wheel would be completely functionless and he could use it to adjust regen without any fear of inadvertently causing the car to ram into another or brake unexpectedly. Problem solved.
...Lance

Deep Blue Metallic 2018 Tesla Model 3 (31849) (delivered: 7/13/18)
Coulis Red 2016 SV (312310) (bought: 12/23/16 sold: 7/5/18)
Glacier Pearl 2012 SL (016138) (delivered: 12/9/11; traded in 12/23/16)
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Re: Official Tesla Model 3 thread

Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:50 am

Oils4AsphaultOnly wrote:The above is exhibit A of behavior that some consider trolling.

I'm not sure I'd call that behavior trolling, but it certainly smacks of the typical armchair, Internet expert. Lots of wordy opinion based upon no actual experience.
'13 SL+Prem (mfg 12/13, leased 4/14, bought 5/17) 32K miTesla S 75D (3/17) 25K mi
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lpickup
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Re: Official Tesla Model 3 thread

Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:52 am

SageBrush wrote:
lpickup wrote: Tesla would do well to take well reasoned negative feedback into consideration to improve their products.

Feedback from a non-owner ?
TACC "concerns" from someone who has never used TACC ?


Oh, and to address this specific comment, maybe I'll add that they could do something to make people who might be hesitant to use/trust TACC more comfortable with it. Maybe like a training wheels mode where it shows more than just the 100 feet or so ahead of the car on the road, but maybe has some kind of chime or display or something to let you know that it sees that stopped traffic up ahead. Believe me, that kind of additional feedback would have made me far more comfortable in using EAP at first.
...Lance

Deep Blue Metallic 2018 Tesla Model 3 (31849) (delivered: 7/13/18)
Coulis Red 2016 SV (312310) (bought: 12/23/16 sold: 7/5/18)
Glacier Pearl 2012 SL (016138) (delivered: 12/9/11; traded in 12/23/16)
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lpickup
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Re: Official Tesla Model 3 thread

Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:55 am

jlv wrote:
Oils4AsphaultOnly wrote:The above is exhibit A of behavior that some consider trolling.

I'm not sure I'd call that behavior trolling, but it certainly smacks of the typical armchair, Internet expert. Lots of wordy opinion based upon no actual experience.


I'll agree with that. And speaking of which...A coworker of mine who has a Porsche 911 (fairly high end model, but since I don't know a lot about them I can't really say which), test drove a Model 3 performance this weekend (and also a P100D) and was completely blown away and turned into an instant convert. Unfortunately he's got a lot of money tied up in the Porsche, but he said if he would get a good trade-in for it he'd order the P3D right away.
...Lance

Deep Blue Metallic 2018 Tesla Model 3 (31849) (delivered: 7/13/18)
Coulis Red 2016 SV (312310) (bought: 12/23/16 sold: 7/5/18)
Glacier Pearl 2012 SL (016138) (delivered: 12/9/11; traded in 12/23/16)
NOGA$4ME Blog

Oils4AsphaultOnly
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Re: Official Tesla Model 3 thread

Mon Sep 10, 2018 12:10 pm

lpickup wrote:
SageBrush wrote:
lpickup wrote: Tesla would do well to take well reasoned negative feedback into consideration to improve their products.

Feedback from a non-owner ?
TACC "concerns" from someone who has never used TACC ?


Yeah, why not? I was scared to death of TACC myself until I was able to actually use it for several weeks and let it earn my trust (I had constantly been "chickening out" and hitting the brakes). Even now there are certain situations where I am at highway speed and see traffic stopped ahead and wonder if TACC "sees" this or not.

Guy said he had concerns about the safety of TACC. This is his opinion, and I consider it valid. He didn't say Tesla's implementation of TACC sucks and the competition is perfect. So it is a good time to point out (at least I think this is the case) is that if he doesn't trust TACC, he's probably not going to trust EAP, and therefore he shouldn't buy the EAP option, and therefore he is only going to get regular cruise control. And then his right scroll wheel would be completely functionless and he could use it to adjust regen without any fear of inadvertently causing the car to ram into another or brake unexpectedly. Problem solved.


I'm sorry, but hearing from someone about how they would never consider flying, because the've read how dangerous flying could be, isn't a good opinion to reference in the 1950's. Tech changes, and thus uninformed opinion is hearsay.

The fact that you had concerns and fears about TACC would make for a good opinion, since you've actually used it and are learning about it through direct experience.

As for the regen toggling, I wasn't thinking of the left-right toggle actions of the scroll wheel, but rather the "park" button. Much like how the "reverse" lever is used to disable TACC while in motion (the car doesn't actually go in reverse), the park button could also be programmed to serve multiple functions that way?
:: Model 3 LR :: acquired 9 May '18
:: Leaf S30 :: build date: Sep '16 :: purchased: Nov '16
Date - Miles / GIDs:
May '17 - 7300 mi / 363
Feb '18 - 20.5k mi / 333

GRA
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Re: Official Tesla Model 3 thread

Mon Sep 10, 2018 5:21 pm

Oils4AsphaultOnly wrote:
GRA wrote:
lpickup wrote:Guy, you effectively raised the same concern. And particularly in the case of the first option (having it assigned to the wheel itself) where the alternate function is the cruise control speed, I think the concern is greater, at least in the case of a rapid slow down, as the car does tend to slow itself down pretty quickly if you adjust the cruise speed down. It's a little more gentle on the speed up side, and since it's traffic aware, it's not like it's going to plow into the car ahead of you. But still it's a valid concern. However, I'm pretty certain it doesn't rise to the level of a critical, dangerous situation, particularly if the down direction means more regen. In this case, the driver intends for the car to slow down more rapidly, and this is going to be the end result whether it's in TACC mode or not. Besides, I don't think the mental gymnastics are too overwhelming. When I'm in TACC mode I am simply not thinking about regen. The car is already doing all the work. And when I'm not in TACC mode, I'm definitely aware that I'm controlling the speed and not the thumbwheel. I have a harder time remembering whether the voice command is triggered by pressing the left or right wheel.

For me personally, I've come to the conclusion that I simply won't use TACC on any car until such time as that particular model car has L4 autonomy, with the manufacturer accepting responsibility for any injuries/accidents resulting from the failure of those systems. The problem is TACC is currently in that in-between range of reliability where it works most of the time, which lulls people into a false sense of security and thus to trust it, without being reliable enough (six 9s minimum, with 7 or 8 preferred) for me to trust my safety to it. With normal CC I know that if I stop paying attention and don't take action I will rear end any car I overtake, so mental/physical disengagement from driving while using it is simply unthinkable (for me; obviously some people do so, with the inevitable result). I'd love to say that I'm one of the people who will be the exception to the rule when it comes to TACC, but I don't consider it justifiable to risk myself or others if I'm (almost inevitably) proven wrong: the research in this area that virtually everyone's susceptible to automation bias/complacency is overwhelming: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automation_bias#Automation_failure_and_%22learned_carelessness%22


In case anyone else doesn't know, GRA doesn't own a Tesla, nor does s/he have any practical experience with one. The above is exhibit A of behavior that some consider trolling.

If anyone considers the above trolling, they need to refresh their definition of same: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll

We're talking about TACC as it currently works in the real world, and how good it needs to be (six nines or better) to be acceptably safe, whether it's Tesla or any other company doing it. Here's what Tesla had to say on the subject in Dec. 2015:
This is the true problem of autonomy: getting a machine learning system to be 99% correct is relatively easy, but getting it to be 99.9999% correct*, which is where it ultimately needs to be, is vastly more difficult. One can see this with the annual machine vision competitions, where the computer will properly identify something as a dog more than 99% of the time, but might occasionally call it a potted plant. Making such mistakes at 70 mph would be highly problematic.
https://www.tesla.com/support/correction-article-first-person-hack-iphone-built-self-driving-car

*i.e. six nines

Every time a Tesla or any other car using TACC runs into a stopped vehicle which it fails to recognize as such, after the car it was pacing changes lanes, is an example where "making such mistakes at 70 mph would be highly problematic."
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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