User avatar
DNAinaGoodWay
Posts: 2751
Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2012 1:43 am
Delivery Date: 03 Dec 2012
Leaf Number: 23156
Location: Central Massachusetts

Re: Chevrolet Bolt - 60 kWh, 238 mi, < 7s 0-60

Sat Apr 08, 2017 7:18 am

Low demand = better pricing for us! Thanks ICE drivers!
'12 SL last reading @ 2 yr, 22k, 260 GIDs, 62.35 Ahr

'15 SV w/QC, Mfd 5/14, Leased 8/14, 292 GIDs, 64.38 Ahr when new
@ 36 months, 34k, 270 GID, 57.49 Ahr

'17 Bolt LT



6.72 kW Array

DanDietrich
Posts: 26
Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2014 8:15 am
Delivery Date: 14 Mar 2014
Leaf Number: 332213
Location: South Orange NJ

Re: Chevrolet Bolt - 60 kWh, 238 mi, < 7s 0-60

Sat Apr 08, 2017 9:47 am

I can't wait to talk to a Bolt owner to see if their car has the same setup for 12 volt stuff. I hate the whole idea of the 12 volt battery in the leaf, and if Chevy avoided it that is one mark in the win column, as far as I am concerned.

lorenfb
Posts: 1391
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:53 pm
Delivery Date: 22 Nov 2013
Leaf Number: 416635
Location: SoCal

Re: Chevrolet Bolt - 60 kWh, 238 mi, < 7s 0-60

Sat Apr 08, 2017 11:01 am

dgpcolorado wrote:Tesla does not display battery temperature directly but it does clearly display regen and power limits, in kW, when the battery is cold (or full, in the case of regen), which is the important thing to a driver. As with other EVs, charging right before driving in cold weather helps warm the battery and increase the regen and power available. Maximum regen is 60 kW and maximum power in my S60 — the slowest Tesla made — is 240 kW.


Then not very useful, not having remaining Ahrs/kWhrs, i.e. only SOC and range are not helpful when you have
a "shrinking gas tank". Hopefully, Jim (LeafSpy) will continue his efforts in providing a "TeslaSpy", if he hasn't
provided one yet. Even though future BEVs will have much less of an issue with range anxiety, it's still very
helpful to know the actual remaining (& @ 100% SOC) battery capacity either in Ahrs or energy in kWhrs

DaveinOlyWA
Gold Member
Posts: 12244
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 10 Nov 2016
Leaf Number: 314199
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Chevrolet Bolt - 60 kWh, 238 mi, < 7s 0-60

Sat Apr 08, 2017 12:10 pm

GetOffYourGas wrote:
DaveinOlyWA wrote:As far as charging speed? If your only experience is with a 24 kwh LEAF, you really would be shocked at the huge leap in usability of the 30 kwh LEAF. Most can't see past the minimal 6 kwh bump. Trust me, there is a lot more there!

http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com/2017/03 ... urney.html


Usability is all relative. And it's about the combination of range and charging speed.

Check out Syracuse NY on Plugshare. There is all of 1 CHAdeMO within 100 miles of me, in Ithaca. A city I visit maybe once or twice a year? Otherwise, the range of a 30kWh Leaf would not cover a significantly larger number of my annual miles than a 24kWh Leaf.

But there is a cluster of CCS/CHAdeMO chargers in Albany, about 150 miles away. A Bolt would easily get there. The return would be trickier since I'd have to charge up past the taper point, but it's doable. It's just not possible in a 30kWh Leaf. And Albany is a mid-point for most of the places that I travel. Every direction other than west has a DCQC within reasonable distance. So yeah, going out is easy. Returning home has one tricky leg - the last one. And a 30kWh Leaf is just as useless as a 24kWh Leaf on those trips.


Obviously its relative and my statement hardly implies that my LEAF has solved all my problems so great comparison of nothing from nothing. Ok, time for someone from South Dakota to chime in!
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 (build 10/2016)"low water marks" 26,100.2 miles.363GID Ahr 79.55Hx95.35%kwh28.1QCs227,L2's 237
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

User avatar
dgpcolorado
Posts: 2966
Joined: Sat Aug 20, 2011 1:56 pm
Delivery Date: 15 Dec 2011
Location: The Western Slope, Colorado

Re: Chevrolet Bolt - 60 kWh, 238 mi, < 7s 0-60

Sat Apr 08, 2017 1:35 pm

lorenfb wrote:Then not very useful, not having remaining Ahrs/kWhrs, i.e. only SOC and range are not helpful when you have a "shrinking gas tank". Hopefully, Jim (LeafSpy) will continue his efforts in providing a "TeslaSpy", if he hasn't
provided one yet. Even though future BEVs will have much less of an issue with range anxiety, it's still very
helpful to know the actual remaining (& @ 100% SOC) battery capacity either in Ahrs or energy in kWhrs
Tesla's rated miles (RM) serve as a proxy for usable capacity and are used as such by Tesla drivers. It is also a more user-friendly metric than kWh or Ah. Something I can say with confidence, having used it to stretch the range of my car on a recent road trip by comparing the RM to actual miles left and keeping an eye on how the difference varied with terrain and speed; it is straightforward and intuitive in a way that kWh and Ah would not be.

In my car one RM is 300 Wh/mile so if my accumulated trip energy usage has been 330 Wh/mile, something that Tesla displays on the dash, I know that I need 1.1 x as many RM left as actual distance left. If I fall short of that number I can slow down and reduce my energy usage. If the number of RM left is greater than 1.1 x actual distance left to go I can speed up, if I wish. In actual usage one can just compare the difference between RM left and actual miles left. If that number is shrinking one might be using energy too quickly to make the destination, depending on the size of the difference. The trip plot provides an even easier way to measure progress in fuel usage versus distance since it displays current SOC, projected battery SOC at the destination, compensates for terrain, and does the calculations automatically.

Where temperature, HVAC use, and the like come into play is in actual energy usage for the trip, something that is displayed on the dash in Wh/mile. Most of the time leaving on a trip leg with a sufficient buffer makes watching the numbers unnecessary. If I leave with 170 RM to make a 90 mile trip leg I certainly don't have to pay attention to energy usage under most driving conditions. It also is irrelevant for local driving since the range of the car greatly exceeds my local driving needs (70 mile grocery shopping trips with large elevation change, for example). But the energy in the battery information is there if needed.
Last edited by dgpcolorado on Sat Apr 08, 2017 2:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Blue 2012 SV Dec 2011 to Feb 2016
CPO 2014 Tesla S60 Mar 2016
One car, no ICE, at last!
Tesla Referral Code

GRA
Posts: 7458
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Chevrolet Bolt - 60 kWh, 238 mi, < 7s 0-60

Sat Apr 08, 2017 1:46 pm

dgpcolorado wrote:
lorenfb wrote:Then not very useful, not having remaining Ahrs/kWhrs, i.e. only SOC and range are not helpful when you have a "shrinking gas tank". Hopefully, Jim (LeafSpy) will continue his efforts in providing a "TeslaSpy", if he hasn't
provided one yet. Even though future BEVs will have much less of an issue with range anxiety, it's still very
helpful to know the actual remaining (& @ 100% SOC) battery capacity either in Ahrs or energy in kWhrs
Tesla's rated miles (RM) serve as a proxy for usable capacity and are used as such by Tesla drivers. It is also a more user-friendly metric than kWh or Ah. Something I can say with confidence, having used it to stretch the range of my car on a recent road trip by comparing the RM to actual miles left and keeping an eye on how the difference varied with terrain and speed; it is straightforward and intuitive in a way that kWh and Ah would not be.

I also like GM's method of showing max., average and minimum ranges simultaneously. Depending on how conservative you are, pick one, subtract your reserve from it (or just use average or max. and let average or minimum be your reserve) and go.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

User avatar
dgpcolorado
Posts: 2966
Joined: Sat Aug 20, 2011 1:56 pm
Delivery Date: 15 Dec 2011
Location: The Western Slope, Colorado

Re: Chevrolet Bolt - 60 kWh, 238 mi, < 7s 0-60

Sun Apr 09, 2017 10:02 am

GRA wrote:I also like GM's method of showing max., average and minimum ranges simultaneously. Depending on how conservative you are, pick one, subtract your reserve from it (or just use average or max. and let average or minimum be your reserve) and go.
The problem with that approach, from my perspective, is that those max, average, and minimum ranges aren't really meaningful. The Tesla trip plot includes terrain changes and gives real time updates to the projection. The RM serves as a finely divided fuel gauge. The trip energy use display serves to give a measure of actual energy use during the conditions since the last stop, last charge or last 5, 15, 30 miles (all of those are available).

For local driving, which is the majority of use of most cars, none of this matters in the slightest in a 200 mile range EV: you start out with a 90% charge, drive however you want, plug-in when you get home, and repeat the next day. [Yes I know that there are outliers who drive more than a hundred miles per day who can be limited in range, especially in cold or snowy weather. That 1% strikes me as irrelevant; they can go with other options.] Paying close attention to the energy profile of a 200 mile range EV is for road trips. The Bolt simply isn't a road trip car, given the current and near future DCFC infrastructure.

In my view, it doesn't really matter very much how precisely the Bolt displays charge levels. That sort of stuff is for short range EVs, such as the LEAF, where range is sometimes limiting even in local driving. My sense is that the concern about such things here at MNL is a carryover from our collective short-range-LEAF experience. I have been trying to point out that once one gets to 200 miles of range it simply doesn't matter much, save for actual road trips. IME, it appears that I am a "minority of one" in this viewpoint!
Blue 2012 SV Dec 2011 to Feb 2016
CPO 2014 Tesla S60 Mar 2016
One car, no ICE, at last!
Tesla Referral Code

GRA
Posts: 7458
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Chevrolet Bolt - 60 kWh, 238 mi, < 7s 0-60

Sun Apr 09, 2017 2:09 pm

dgpcolorado wrote:
GRA wrote:I also like GM's method of showing max., average and minimum ranges simultaneously. Depending on how conservative you are, pick one, subtract your reserve from it (or just use average or max. and let average or minimum be your reserve) and go.
The problem with that approach, from my perspective, is that those max, average, and minimum ranges aren't really meaningful. The Tesla trip plot includes terrain changes and gives real time updates to the projection. The RM serves as a finely divided fuel gauge. The trip energy use display serves to give a measure of actual energy use during the conditions since the last stop, last charge or last 5, 15, 30 miles (all of those are available).

For local driving, which is the majority of use of most cars, none of this matters in the slightest in a 200 mile range EV: you start out with a 90% charge, drive however you want, plug-in when you get home, and repeat the next day. [Yes I know that there are outliers who drive more than a hundred miles per day who can be limited in range, especially in cold or snowy weather. That 1% strikes me as irrelevant; they can go with other options.] Paying close attention to the energy profile of a 200 mile range EV is for road trips. The Bolt simply isn't a road trip car, given the current and near future DCFC infrastructure.

In my view, it doesn't really matter very much how precisely the Bolt displays charge levels. That sort of stuff is for short range EVs, such as the LEAF, where range is sometimes limiting even in local driving. My sense is that the concern about such things here at MNL is a carryover from our collective short-range-LEAF experience. I have been trying to point out that once one gets to 200 miles of range it simply doesn't matter much, save for actual road trips. IME, it appears that I am a "minority of one" in this viewpoint!

I agree that the RM trip plot is easier to use, but I think the max./avg./min. method forces people to think more and pay attention to the car's performance under varying real world conditions, as well as being aware of how those conditions will change in the near future (big climbs/descents etc.)instead of just reacting. But then I also prefer to drive a stick shift because of its greater driver engagement, and I realize I'm an outlier in the U.S. Certainly, for the average person the RM method with terrain plot is likely to be more popular. I guess I'm generally resistant to depending on a fuel gauge or any other single instrument and not using my brain (note that my current car lacks a GOM, GPS or connectivity, but it does have weather band radio and is stocked with maps). Fortunately, with a variety of methods now available to people, they can choose whichever suits them best.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
Posts: 7458
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Chevrolet Bolt - 60 kWh, 238 mi, < 7s 0-60

Sun Apr 09, 2017 3:12 pm

Another mostly positive test drive review, this time from Business Insider via IEVS:
Chevrolet Bolt Test Drive Concludes It’s An EV-1 Turned Up To 11
[url][url] http://insideevs.com/chevrolet-bolt-tes ... -up-to-11/[/url][/url]

Direct link to full BI review:http://www.businessinsider.com/2017-chevy-bolt-review-photos-2017-3/#lets-talk-charging-10
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GetOffYourGas
Posts: 1653
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2011 6:56 pm
Delivery Date: 09 Mar 2012
Location: Syracuse, NY

Re: Chevrolet Bolt - 60 kWh, 238 mi, < 7s 0-60

Sun Apr 09, 2017 6:01 pm

DaveinOlyWA wrote:
GetOffYourGas wrote:
DaveinOlyWA wrote:As far as charging speed? If your only experience is with a 24 kwh LEAF, you really would be shocked at the huge leap in usability of the 30 kwh LEAF. Most can't see past the minimal 6 kwh bump. Trust me, there is a lot more there!

http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com/2017/03 ... urney.html


Usability is all relative. And it's about the combination of range and charging speed.

Check out Syracuse NY on Plugshare. There is all of 1 CHAdeMO within 100 miles of me, in Ithaca. A city I visit maybe once or twice a year? Otherwise, the range of a 30kWh Leaf would not cover a significantly larger number of my annual miles than a 24kWh Leaf.

But there is a cluster of CCS/CHAdeMO chargers in Albany, about 150 miles away. A Bolt would easily get there. The return would be trickier since I'd have to charge up past the taper point, but it's doable. It's just not possible in a 30kWh Leaf. And Albany is a mid-point for most of the places that I travel. Every direction other than west has a DCQC within reasonable distance. So yeah, going out is easy. Returning home has one tricky leg - the last one. And a 30kWh Leaf is just as useless as a 24kWh Leaf on those trips.


Obviously its relative and my statement hardly implies that my LEAF has solved all my problems so great comparison of nothing from nothing. Ok, time for someone from South Dakota to chime in!


Ok, Dave, you lost me. I don't understand what you are trying to say here.

I was responding to your claim that I "really would be shocked at the huge leap in usability of the 30 kwh LEAF". I have given my reasons why I suspect that I really would be underwhelmed by the addition of 6kWh. It would make very little improvement to the car's usability to me.

The Bolt adds so much more usability, even if the "quick charging" is slower than on the 30kWh Leaf. The Leaf wouldn't even get me to the DCQC in question! Yes, infrastructure might (hopefully WILL) improve in the future. But I refuse to buy a car on the *hopes* that there will eventually be chargers where I need them.
~Brian

EV Fleet:
2011 Torqeedo Travel 1003 electric outboard on a 22' sailboat
2012 Leaf SV (traded for Bolt)
2015 C-Max Energi (302A package)
2017 Bolt Premier

Return to “Other Electric Cars & Plug-In Hybrids”