KeiJidosha
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Re: Chevrolet Bolt - 60 kWh, 238 mi, < 7s 0-60

Sun Apr 09, 2017 7:21 pm

DanDietrich wrote:I can't wait to talk to a Bolt owner to see if their car has the same setup for 12 volt stuff. I hate the whole idea of the 12 volt battery in the leaf, and if Chevy avoided it that is one mark in the win column, as far as I am concerned.

Hyundai Ioniq looks to eliminate the 12V Lead Acid battery with a "Consolidated" battery pack (at 02:00). Bolt still has a separate battery.

https://youtu.be/h2PGHwLzfz8

lorenfb
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Re: Chevrolet Bolt - 60 kWh, 238 mi, < 7s 0-60

Sun Apr 09, 2017 10:48 pm

dgpcolorado wrote:
lorenfb wrote:Then not very useful, not having remaining Ahrs/kWhrs, i.e. only SOC and range are not helpful when you have a "shrinking gas tank". Hopefully, Jim (LeafSpy) will continue his efforts in providing a "TeslaSpy", if he hasn't
provided one yet. Even though future BEVs will have much less of an issue with range anxiety, it's still very
helpful to know the actual remaining (& @ 100% SOC) battery capacity either in Ahrs or energy in kWhrs
Tesla's rated miles (RM) serve as a proxy for usable capacity and are used as such by Tesla drivers. It is also a more user-friendly metric than kWh or Ah. Something I can say with confidence, having used it to stretch the range of my car on a recent road trip by comparing the RM to actual miles left and keeping an eye on how the difference varied with terrain and speed; it is straightforward and intuitive in a way that kWh and Ah would not be.

In my car one RM is 300 Wh/mile so if my accumulated trip energy usage has been 330 Wh/mile, something that Tesla displays on the dash, I know that I need 1.1 x as many RM left as actual distance left. If I fall short of that number I can slow down and reduce my energy usage. If the number of RM left is greater than 1.1 x actual distance left to go I can speed up, if I wish. In actual usage one can just compare the difference between RM left and actual miles left. If that number is shrinking one might be using energy too quickly to make the destination, depending on the size of the difference. The trip plot provides an even easier way to measure progress in fuel usage versus distance since it displays current SOC, projected battery SOC at the destination, compensates for terrain, and does the calculations automatically.

Where temperature, HVAC use, and the like come into play is in actual energy usage for the trip, something that is displayed on the dash in Wh/mile. Most of the time leaving on a trip leg with a sufficient buffer makes watching the numbers unnecessary. If I leave with 170 RM to make a 90 mile trip leg I certainly don't have to pay attention to energy usage under most driving conditions. It also is irrelevant for local driving since the range of the car greatly exceeds my local driving needs (70 mile grocery shopping trips with large elevation change, for example). But the energy in the battery information is there if needed.


I just got a headache. It's overly complex and still relies on historical averages. Even with my ICEVs,
I discount the range estimate and utilize the gas gauge. Using either Ahrs or kWhrs is analogous
to having a gas gauge which essentially is a true measure of capacity. Besides the typical consumer's
unfamiliarity understanding of those terms, most BEV OEMs don't care to have the consumer become
aware of battery degradation. Unfortunately, most all future BEVs won't ever provide a true measure
of remaining battery capacity.

With my monitoring of my Leaf over the last 3.5 yrs (47K miles), I can very reliably estimate my range
as a worse case estimate of about 2.2 miles/Ahr. Yes, my estimate is based on averages just like the Leaf's
GOM (poor), but at least I can see in real time how the actual capacity is changing and NOT relying on
historical longer term estimates. That's one of the reasons many of us utilize LeafSpy and/or LeafDD.
Furthermore, having access to the actual battery Ahrs, allows my determining how low the battery
will be discharged during a current trip before a re-charge.
Last edited by lorenfb on Mon Apr 10, 2017 6:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

cwerdna
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Re: Chevrolet Bolt - 60 kWh, 238 mi, < 7s 0-60

Mon Apr 10, 2017 1:25 am

lorenfb wrote:Hopefully, Jim (LeafSpy) will continue his efforts in providing a "TeslaSpy", if he hasn't
provided one yet.

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=21507
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/posts/1380958/

'13 blue Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 blue Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)
'06 Prius

lorenfb
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Re: Chevrolet Bolt - 60 kWh, 238 mi, < 7s 0-60

Mon Apr 10, 2017 6:07 am

cwerdna wrote:
lorenfb wrote:Hopefully, Jim (LeafSpy) will continue his efforts in providing a "TeslaSpy", if he hasn't
provided one yet.

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=21507
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/posts/1380958/


Thanks for the insight.

Zythryn
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Re: Chevrolet Bolt - 60 kWh, 238 mi, < 7s 0-60

Mon Apr 10, 2017 6:40 am

lorenfb wrote:...

With my monitoring of my Leaf over the last 3.5 yrs (47K miles), I can very reliably estimate my range
as a worse case estimate of about 2.2 miles/Ahr. Yes, my estimate is based on averages just like the Leaf's
GOM (poor), but at least I can see in real time how the actual capacity is changing and NOT relying on
historical longer term estimates. That's one of the reasons many of us utilize LeafSpy and/or LeafDD.
Furthermore, having access to the actual battery Ahrs, allows my determining how low the battery
will be discharged during a current trip before a re-charge.


I can very reliable estimate my range too.
I look at the "miles remaining" range display. Or, I can look at the "predicted range remaining" available on the energy tab of the display.
Or, if I am using NAV, I can look at the estimate ramaining battery percentage left at the destination.

The estimated range is very good in most cars. It is the Leaf's biggest weakness IMO. With a good estimate, I far prefer estimated miles remaining over Ahrs.
Previous owner of Prius, Volt & Leaf
Current owner of Model S
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dgpcolorado
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Re: Chevrolet Bolt - 60 kWh, 238 mi, < 7s 0-60

Mon Apr 10, 2017 9:05 am

lorenfb wrote:I just got a headache. It's overly complex and still relies on historical averages. Even with my ICEVs,
I discount the range estimate and utilize the gas gauge. Using either Ahrs or kWhrs is analogous
to having a gas gauge which essentially is a true measure of capacity. Besides the typical consumer's
unfamiliarity understanding of those terms, most BEV OEMs don't care to have the consumer become
aware of battery degradation. Unfortunately, most all future BEVs won't ever provide a true measure
of remaining battery capacity.

With my monitoring of my Leaf over the last 3.5 yrs (47K miles), I can very reliably estimate my range
as a worse case estimate of about 2.2 miles/Ahr. Yes, my estimate is based on averages just like the Leaf's
GOM (poor), but at least I can see in real time how the actual capacity is changing and NOT relying on
historical longer term estimates. That's one of the reasons many of us utilize LeafSpy and/or LeafDD.
Furthermore, having access to the actual battery Ahrs, allows my determining how low the battery
will be discharged during a current trip before a re-charge.
I used a Leaf DD as well but that is way too complex for most people. It was essential for me because I was stretching the range of my LEAF every time I went grocery shopping, especially in winter when the battery had degraded. How many ordinary people who don't hang out at MNL really understand Ah or kWh? Or care?

Such things figure to be irrelevant on the Bolt for most people because the range is great enough that it doesn't matter in daily local driving. Why pay attention to the fuel gauge when you start out with a nearly full tank each day?

Regardless, the Tesla "rated miles" (RM) is a more helpful fuel gauge than Ah or kWh since it is more finely divided and easier to grasp for most people. It has nothing whatever to do with historical averages, as you suggest, it is just a measure of energy in the battery based on the EPA efficiency of the car, a fixed number. There are many other tools available to help with measuring driving conditions and actual range but RM is just an energy gauge.
Blue 2012 SV Dec 2011 to Feb 2016
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lorenfb
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Re: Chevrolet Bolt - 60 kWh, 238 mi, < 7s 0-60

Mon Apr 10, 2017 9:16 am

dgpcolorado wrote: it is just a measure of energy in the battery based on the EPA efficiency of the car, a fixed number. There are many other tools available to help with measuring driving conditions and actual range but RM is just an energy gauge.


Great, another GOM based on someone else's driving conditions!

GetOffYourGas
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Re: Chevrolet Bolt - 60 kWh, 238 mi, < 7s 0-60

Mon Apr 10, 2017 10:27 am

lorenfb wrote:
dgpcolorado wrote: it is just a measure of energy in the battery based on the EPA efficiency of the car, a fixed number. There are many other tools available to help with measuring driving conditions and actual range but RM is just an energy gauge.


Great, another GOM based on someone else's driving conditions!


Just divide it by the EPA miles/kWh and multiply it by your own. Easy to do in your head, right? :lol:
~Brian

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abasile
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Re: Chevrolet Bolt - 60 kWh, 238 mi, < 7s 0-60

Mon Apr 10, 2017 11:46 am

lorenfb wrote:
dgpcolorado wrote: it is just a measure of energy in the battery based on the EPA efficiency of the car, a fixed number. There are many other tools available to help with measuring driving conditions and actual range but RM is just an energy gauge.

Great, another GOM based on someone else's driving conditions!

No, the "rated miles" display is not what I'd call a GOM ("guess-o-meter"), because it doesn't attempt to guess how much energy your particular driving conditions are going to require.

If you are an average driver in normal conditions, EPA rated miles tend to be pretty close to actual usage. It's a great yardstick.

We know Tesla drivers who aren't techies (my wife being one of them), and they find EPA rated miles and the nav-integrated range predictions to be quite easy to understand and useful.
2011 LEAF at 67K miles, pre-owned 2012 Tesla S 85 now at 80K miles
LEAF battery: 10/12 bars and < 49 Ah (-27% vs. new)
Tesla battery: 250+ miles of range (-5% vs. new)

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Re: Chevrolet Bolt - 60 kWh, 238 mi, < 7s 0-60

Mon Apr 10, 2017 5:04 pm

Via IEVS:
Bjørn Nyland Takes Chevrolet Bolt 292 Miles On A Single Charge – Video
http://insideevs.com/bjorn-nyland-takes ... rge-video/

In South Korea, and obviously not much if any freeway, and no heat.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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