cwerdna
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Re: Chevrolet Bolt - 60 kWh, 238 mi, < 7s 0-60

Thu Jan 24, 2019 11:20 pm

GetOffYourGas wrote:
LeftieBiker wrote:The Bolt app does have a SOC display


I was going to bring this up too. The app is available through CarPlay, so you can get to it through the main screen while driving. Although you do have to connect your app to the car, and I don't know how easy this is for a rental. The nice thing about the app is that it continues to show % SoC when the battery is very low. When the car gets below 10%, the dash display just starts flashing, just like my 2012 Leaf used to do. Right when you need SoC the most, it is taken away from you. The app gives it back.

cwerdna wrote:I'm worried about all the extra cycles the car seems to put on the HID headlights. I didn't see a way of disabling the auto-headlight behavior and how much it likes turning on the headlights by itself. Will need to dig into that if I buy.


You can. There is a button on the headlight stalk to turn the intellibeam feature on/off. If you owned the car, a brief search of the owner's manual would tell you where it is.

I knew about the Intellibeam button on the left stalk and experimented w/turning that on/off. From glancing at the '17 Bolt manual, the seems to only control whether the car drives with high beams on most of the time above certain speeds unless certain conditions are met (e.g. taillights, oncoming headlights, etc.)

I'm talking about the cycles from me unlocking the car and it wanting to turn on the HID headlights, all the exterior lights and even the white backup lights (I hate that on other GM cars in parking lots, is confusing). I wish I could disable most/all of that or at least the HIDs. I'd rather not have extra cycles on HIDs.

I didn't know which app I would've needed to get. I may not have had access anyway, esp. if it was thru OnStar. I didn't have the owner's credentials.

I did use CarPlay (was weird I had to go to a Projection menu item to enable). Was very cool on such a big screen.

I'm still very torn. I feel like if I'm buying a Bolt, I'm getting a less refined EV. GM reliability is generally not good. However, when CR had only the 1st model year reliability info for Bolt, it was very good (very surprising for GM). That year, it was Chevy's most reliable vehicle. Now, the '17 has fallen to average reliability while '18 is very good (even better than '18 Leaf). However, this will always change year to year over time.

GM's capacity warranty clause (guide at https://www.chevrolet.com/content/dam/c ... mation.pdf, they don't seem to have '19 online yet) on page 14 is very vague. It talks about 10% to up to 40% capacity loss during the warranty period but doesn't really explicitly say that it hits 41% (== defect) or whatever, that they'll replace. I found https://www.chevybolt.org/forum/9-2017- ... -cost.html but to me, it's not definitive. On the + side, a bunch of EV system stuff including the motor are warranted for 8 years/100K miles, longer than Leaf.

I'm not clear how much degradation data we have on Bolt. (Yes, I saw the guy's video thinking he had 8% loss at 70K miles.) We certainly have no idea on the Leaf e+. Seems like GM w/thermal management and previous battery LG Chem chemistries (and others like A123) don't have big probs w/capacity loss over time, esp. compared to Leaf but Bolt is different. And, the car doesn't even have a user visible capacity indicator, AFAIK.

One BIG good point on the Bolt is UI on the '19 let you adjust when charging stops. It seems to let you select 40% to 100% in 5% increments. This is AWESOME compared to no limiter on any '14+ US Leafs (and needing futz w/timers or terminating charge early manually). I doubt it will come back on the '19 Leaf e+.

At the same time, I doubt Nissan would heavily discount the e+ when it comes out in Spring 2019 (never got a good since of how much '19 Leaf SL are really selling for now). Why would they? The effective price on a Bolt will be $3750 higher on April 1st (tax credit on GM EVs/PHEVs cut in 1/2) and another $1875 higher on Oct 1, 2019 (GM tax credit going to 1/4). and so on. If I buy Bolt now w/the heavy discounting, I'm guessing I'll be paying ~$3400 to $5500 less than an e+ SL (after tax credits) for a Premier with infotainment package, driver confidence II package and DC FC inlet.

Will I rack up enough repair bills to make up the difference? Will the car become a pain in the butt due to repairs needed? How will battery degradation be between the two over the long term? Degradation warranty on Bolt seems fuzzy and is also fuzzy on Leaf (due to just bars in the warranty).

'19 Bolt Premier
'13 Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

DaveinOlyWA
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Re: Chevrolet Bolt - 60 kWh, 238 mi, < 7s 0-60

Fri Jan 25, 2019 8:57 am

Wasn't going to say anything simply because the range of needs are nearly infinite but I agree with your sediment. You are getting a 2019 battery in a 1995 car. Sorry but I simply can't look at the Bolt any other way. Those seats weren't all that uncommon previously.

You live where ALL EVs go so unless your need is dire, I feel you are better off to pay the extra $5K or whatever and get something coming in the next 6 months.

As far as build quality? I don't see much of a difference among brands. Build quality is not the key anyway, its final inspection. At the same time, when the bar is set so low, its hard to not overreact to the small stuff. This is partially why T3'ers accept a LOT of minor issues. The upside is that much.

As far as T3? I will be doing an in depth review with a new owner that is well known here. He is happy overall due to range but has a lot of things he wishes was different including things like getting in and out of the car, charge port door timing, etc... Here where Cellular service is good in most places, relying on a cellphone only app is not always going to score points.
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 deceased. 29,413 miles. 2018 S40; 15,000 miles, 478 GIDs, 37.0 kwh 109.81 Ahr , SOH 94.61, Hx 120.15
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cwerdna
Posts: 9186
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: Chevrolet Bolt - 60 kWh, 238 mi, < 7s 0-60

Fri Jan 25, 2019 10:52 am

DaveinOlyWA wrote:Wasn't going to say anything simply because the range of needs are nearly infinite but I agree with your sediment. You are getting a 2019 battery in a 1995 car. Sorry but I simply can't look at the Bolt any other way. Those seats weren't all that uncommon previously.

You live where ALL EVs go so unless your need is dire, I feel you are better off to pay the extra $5K or whatever and get something coming in the next 6 months.

As far as build quality? I don't see much of a difference among brands. Build quality is not the key anyway, its final inspection. At the same time, when the bar is set so low, its hard to not overreact to the small stuff. This is partially why T3'ers accept a LOT of minor issues. The upside is that much.

Regarding the seats, they went thin, seemingly to get more interior room. I'd stumbled across https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpbXgKIx3F4 (before Bolt was released). Skip to about 1:00 of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpbXgKIx3F4. But somehow the '17 seats besides being thin just seemed to be shaped wrong and too hard. My parents have had 3 GM cars before (model years 78, 80 and 86). None of them had seats that were uncomfortable. I wouldn't call the Bolt the 1995 car. The rest of the technology in the car (dash display and large LCD w/CarPlay and Android Auto) are far beyond a 1995 car and beyond gen 1 Leaf.

My need isn't dire but even though gen 2 Leaf interior is clearly better and Leafs seems more refined, the big downsides I see for e+ Leaf besides what will almost certainly be much higher cost is no battery thermal management (I'm in not the mild PNW, summer high temps not that infrequently are past 90 F and sometimes even 100 F), AESC's checkered history when it comes to battery degradation and no way to limit charging to stop at a certain %. I'd have to manually monkey w/constantly altering the charging timer or terminating the charging manually. (And, no I'm not planning to install a 240 volt EVSE at home w/its own timer/management.) LCD is also much smaller on e+ Leaf.

I remember your comment where you didn't want to charge because outside air temps was 55 F! Uhh.. almost the entire year here, our high daytime temps are higher than 55 F and there are many months where it's impossible that the OAT is below 55 F when the sun's out. It's rare for my garage to even get below 55 F at night in almost every month.

In sorta my part of the Bay Area, we've had some '11 and '12 Leafers who lost 4 bars in time for the 5 year/60K capacity warranty (including a guy at my work before he was let go) and some that missed it. If I were in the mild climate PNW, sure, I wouldn't find thermal management to be a big advantage.

I'm not as concerned about internal and external build quality (e.g. panel gap fitment, fitment of interior pieces) but more concerned about long term reliability.

Model 3 is ruled out due to high cost, less tax credit, I don't wish to pay for what's on the $44K version now and a ton of missing features (e.g. no Around View Monitor, no AM radio, no XM radio, no aux input jack and yes I use all of these on my Leaf) besides numerous mistakes Tesla has made on the 3. I'm pessimistic about their long term reliability given their track record. Every vehicle they introduce seems like a rush job.

'19 Bolt Premier
'13 Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

KeiJidosha
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Re: Chevrolet Bolt - 60 kWh, 238 mi, < 7s 0-60

Fri Jan 25, 2019 2:07 pm

cwerdna wrote:...I'm talking about the cycles from me unlocking the car and it wanting to turn on the HID headlights, all the exterior lights and even the white backup lights (I hate that on other GM cars in parking lots, is confusing). I wish I could disable most/all of that or at least the HIDs. I'd rather not have extra cycles on HIDs...

Manual page 153;

"Lighting Features
Entry Lighting
Some exterior lamps and the interior
lamps turn on briefly at night when
the Remote Keyless Entry (RKE)
transmitter <Unlock> Key is pressed. See
Remote Keyless Entry (RKE)
System Operation p 33. The lights
turn off immediately when the
vehicle is started or automatically
after a brief period.
This feature can be turned on or off.
See “Vehicle Locator Lights” under
Vehicle Personalization p 142."
- 2009 BMW MINI E > 2013 Honda Fit EV > 2017 Chevy Bolt EV
- 2013 Ford C-Max Energi > 2020 Jaguar I-Pace (ordered)

KeiJidosha
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Re: Chevrolet Bolt - 60 kWh, 238 mi, < 7s 0-60

Fri Jan 25, 2019 2:30 pm

cwerdna wrote:..My need isn't dire but even though gen 2 Leaf interior is clearly better and Leafs seems more refined....

I understand those that gravitate more to the comfort of the LEAF over the minimalist Bolt.

For those happy with the LEAF, other than the battery, why not the Hyundai/Kia EVs? better interior materials and comfort, and multi-link rear suspension (vs Torsion-beam) delivers a more comfortable ride, with a Battery and Drive that seems virtually similar to the Bolts?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2lsVDdgLXho
- 2009 BMW MINI E > 2013 Honda Fit EV > 2017 Chevy Bolt EV
- 2013 Ford C-Max Energi > 2020 Jaguar I-Pace (ordered)

cwerdna
Posts: 9186
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Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: Chevrolet Bolt - 60 kWh, 238 mi, < 7s 0-60

Fri Jan 25, 2019 3:10 pm

Thanks for the earlier info about customization!
KeiJidosha wrote:
cwerdna wrote:..My need isn't dire but even though gen 2 Leaf interior is clearly better and Leafs seems more refined....

I understand those that gravitate more to the comfort of the LEAF over the minimalist Bolt.

For those happy with the LEAF, other than the battery, why not the Hyundai/Kia EVs? better interior materials and comfort, and multi-link rear suspension (vs Torsion-beam) delivers a more comfortable ride, with a Battery and Drive that seems virtually similar to the Bolts?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2lsVDdgLXho

Hyundai/Kia EVs that are longer range than Soul EV aren't currently even in the picture for me judging by the Ioniq EV situation where for the longest time it was virtual vaporware in the US outside So Cal. When I checked a few days ago, the Ioniq EV is STILL not available in the SF Bay Area (try zip code 95136) but IS available in NY (try zip code 10001). :roll: The Ioniq EV's been "on sale" in the US since March 2017 but with puny sales/lease numbers: https://insideevs.com/monthly-plug-in-sales-scorecard/.

Hyundai/Kia reliability when I've looked before was dodgy, at best. And, if their vehicles are n/a here, no thanks. I'm not going to go to So Cal to get it and worry about dealers up here who have 0 experience in servicing. If supply is very constrained, I doubt I'll be able to get a good deal.

If I lived in an area where their vehicles are readily available, my inclinations might be different.

As I've posted many times in threads here and elsewhere, I'm very skeptical or all the Kona EV and Niro EV buzz judging by the Ioniq EV US situation. Not bothering.

The GM tax credit situation has a hard deadline though. It becomes $3750 on April 1, 2019, $1875 on Oct 1st and so on. Doesn't seem like competitors (e.g. Nissan, Kia, Hyundai, etc.) will be real motivated to deeply discount their EVs/PHEVs if a competitor's effective price has gone up due to tax credit reduction.

'19 Bolt Premier
'13 Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

LeftieBiker
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Re: Chevrolet Bolt - 60 kWh, 238 mi, < 7s 0-60

Fri Jan 25, 2019 3:58 pm

Doesn't Kia offer a Soul EV with much longer range from a big pack, now? I drove a Soul 14 months ago, and the ride is nicer than the Bolts, with roughly the same interior space and several option packages available. The motor lacked real power, though. Maybe they upped it. (The Soul EV is widely available.)
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2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

KeiJidosha
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Re: Chevrolet Bolt - 60 kWh, 238 mi, < 7s 0-60

Fri Jan 25, 2019 4:02 pm

cwerdna wrote:...If I lived in an area where their vehicles are readily available, my inclinations might be different...

Agree. Unavailable = Undesirable
- 2009 BMW MINI E > 2013 Honda Fit EV > 2017 Chevy Bolt EV
- 2013 Ford C-Max Energi > 2020 Jaguar I-Pace (ordered)

cwerdna
Posts: 9186
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Re: Chevrolet Bolt - 60 kWh, 238 mi, < 7s 0-60

Fri Jan 25, 2019 4:03 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:Doesn't Kia offer a Soul EV with much longer range from a big pack, now? I drove a Soul 14 months ago, and the ride is nicer than the Bolts, with roughly the same interior space and several option packages available. The motor lacked real power, though. Maybe they upped it. (The Soul EV is widely available.)

Not AFAIK.

I looked up Kia Soul EV and found https://fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?act ... 8&id=39322 found only 111 mile EPA range vehicles. No thanks. I'd keep my '13 Leaf and '06 Prius instead.

My goal is to go to a single pure BEV only.

'19 Bolt Premier
'13 Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

KeiJidosha
Gold Member
Posts: 914
Joined: Sat May 01, 2010 11:57 am
Delivery Date: 26 Jun 2011
Location: Simi Valley, CA

Re: Chevrolet Bolt - 60 kWh, 238 mi, < 7s 0-60

Fri Jan 25, 2019 4:10 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:Doesn't Kia offer a Soul EV with much longer range from a big pack, now? I drove a Soul 14 months ago, and the ride is nicer than the Bolts, with roughly the same interior space and several option packages available. The motor lacked real power, though. Maybe they upped it. (The Soul EV is widely available.)

"the all-new 2020 Soul EV. Debuting at the 2018 Los Angeles Auto Show with an electric motor providing an estimated 201 horsepower and 291 lb.-ft. of torque and leading-edge technology, be ready to charge your way forward as Soul EV hits dealerships in mid-late March 2019, in select markets in limited quantities."

ie. after GM tax credit reduction.

https://www.kia.com/us/en/content/vehicles/upcoming-vehicles/2020-soul-ev
- 2009 BMW MINI E > 2013 Honda Fit EV > 2017 Chevy Bolt EV
- 2013 Ford C-Max Energi > 2020 Jaguar I-Pace (ordered)

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