LeftieBiker
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Re: Chevrolet Bolt - 60 kWh, 238 mi, < 7s 0-60

Fri Jan 25, 2019 4:16 pm

Thanks! If the pricing info looks good, I suggest that Cwerdna go out and drive the existing Soul EV, as the new one, like the "new" Leaf, should be just an upgrade of the existing car. The other benefit of the Soul over the Ionic, Kona, etc, is they already sell the Soul EV in 12 states, not just SoCal.

A drawback just occurred to me, though: unless they have developed a 4 camera system for the Soul upgrade, they rely on rather crappy front parking sensors, instead. The one on the Soul I drove sometimes didn't sound a warning until the nose was actually over the curb.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

cwerdna
Posts: 9186
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: Chevrolet Bolt - 60 kWh, 238 mi, < 7s 0-60

Fri Jan 25, 2019 4:35 pm

^^^
It's too late. I'm not going to bother w/the 2020 Soul EV. Wasn't even on my radar until now.

If they were all available now and here in Nor Cal, ok, I'd consider. The problem is that the timing of all of these (Ioniq EV, Niro EV, Soul EV and Leaf e+) is all off, but possibly intentional (to wait for GM tax credit to go to $3750 and lower). And, I already have mentioned Kia/Hyundai's track record of availability outside Nor Cal for the Ioniq EV --> skeptical.

If we were past GM tax credit having been reduced and they were all available here, sure I'd be looking at them as well.

'19 Bolt Premier
'13 Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

LeftieBiker
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Re: Chevrolet Bolt - 60 kWh, 238 mi, < 7s 0-60

Fri Jan 25, 2019 6:55 pm

I mentioned the Soul mainly because the ride and seats are much better than the Bolt's.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 13791
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
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Leaf Number: 314199
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Chevrolet Bolt - 60 kWh, 238 mi, < 7s 0-60

Fri Jan 25, 2019 7:43 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:I mentioned the Soul mainly because the ride and seats are much better than the Bolt's.


Very good choice and has active cooling albeit just fans. 2020 probably in "selected" areas of California early Spring. But Kia has very limited distribution and several indicators of a very tight battery supply likely meaning a trickling stream of stock for a while.

The thought of them bringing two EVs to market at the same time had me thinking they were finally getting serious but that feeling is starting to fade.
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 deceased. 29,413 miles. 2018 S40; 15,000 miles, 478 GIDs, 37.0 kwh 109.81 Ahr , SOH 94.61, Hx 120.15
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WetEV
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Joined: Fri May 04, 2012 8:25 am
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Location: Near Seattle, WA

Re: Chevrolet Bolt - 60 kWh, 238 mi, < 7s 0-60

Fri Jan 25, 2019 11:07 pm

cwerdna wrote:If I were in the mild climate PNW, sure, I wouldn't find thermal management to be a big advantage.


You may not find thermal management much of an advantage in the Bay area as well.

Do you have LeafSpy? Is it linked to Dropbox?

If so, look at the battery temperatures you have had. A TMS should not be designed to cool the battery below dew point anywhere, and a dew point of 35 C (95 F) has been recorded. To cool the battery to 35 C, some parts would be cooler... So 40 C or 45 C cooling thresholds are more common. However, for USA only, 35 C isn't out of the question as a cooling threshold, and that is what GM seems to use.

I think, from various reports and a "Torque Pro" log of a Bolt from California, that the Bolt's cooling threshold is about 35C while charging or operating. The highest battery temperature in the log was 37C, over a summer.

So look at your Leaf's history. Did the battery temperature ever exceed 35C? If so, by how much, and for how long?
WetEV
#49
Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
2012 Leaf SL Red (Totaled)
2014 Leaf SL Red

cwerdna
Posts: 9186
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
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Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: Chevrolet Bolt - 60 kWh, 238 mi, < 7s 0-60

Sat Jan 26, 2019 12:05 am

WetEV wrote:
cwerdna wrote:If I were in the mild climate PNW, sure, I wouldn't find thermal management to be a big advantage.


You may not find thermal management much of an advantage in the Bay area as well.

Do you have LeafSpy? Is it linked to Dropbox?

If so, look at the battery temperatures you have had. A TMS should not be designed to cool the battery below dew point anywhere, and a dew point of 35 C (95 F) has been recorded. To cool the battery to 35 C, some parts would be cooler... So 40 C or 45 C cooling thresholds are more common. However, for USA only, 35 C isn't out of the question as a cooling threshold, and that is what GM seems to use.

I think, from various reports and a "Torque Pro" log of a Bolt from California, that the Bolt's cooling threshold is about 35C while charging or operating. The highest battery temperature in the log was 37C, over a summer.

So look at your Leaf's history. Did the battery temperature ever exceed 35C? If so, by how much, and for how long?

Interesting. I do use Leaf Spy. No, it does not upload to Dropbox. I don't think I even have an account with them. I wasn't aware of the considerations you mentioned.

I can tell you that my Leaf pack temperature rarely gets up to 90 F, let alone past 95 F. It might be a no more than a week or two in total for a whole year due to my temp mitigation strategies I'm able to take at work (parking in slightly underground parking that's much cooler than ground level outside air temp). It's the hot days when I'm off that's an issue.

FWIW, when Tesla's only vehicle was the Roadster, I distinctly remember the Roadster parked in their showroom indoors had the coolant pump running the whole time from the noises it emitted.

I will have to see if there's an equivalent for this https://gm-volt.com/2013/05/03/volt-bat ... izona-sun/ (which is for the Volt). Clearly, GM was maintaining temps well below 35 C (95 F) on gen 1 Volt while charging.

edit: I found https://www.chevybolt.org/forum/82-char ... post458729. Haven't had time to look at the threads referenced earlier.

'19 Bolt Premier
'13 Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 13791
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Feb 2018
Leaf Number: 314199
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Contact: Website

Re: Chevrolet Bolt - 60 kWh, 238 mi, < 7s 0-60

Sat Jan 26, 2019 10:01 am

Chemistry goes a long way here. LEAF packs are Li so share basic characteristics with other EVs but one thing they don't share is High SOC/heat robustility. Battery U confirms LEAF chemistry (a bit dated but not seeing any significant improvement lately either) is less tolerant in this area which is reason my personal habit of reducing full charges at temps over 70º. No real idea as to what buffer this creates for me but if I don't need the range, I feel it rather foolish to ignore basic Li characteristics.

FYI; Nissan BMS alters "cold" pack QC profile differently than the Bolt. Whereas the Bolt slows initial charge speed down until pack heats up then increases the rate, the LEAF still starts at max charge rate, but the knee is moved back and its directly correlated to the pack starting temperature. The failing of TMS is having no ability to "preheat" pack especially when pack is well below optimum temps we seem to have quite a bit of lately. Add a button on the dash. its not rocket science...

So best QC performance happens when LEAF pack starting temp is in mid 80's which is likely too high for the chemistry being used. The other thing is whether charge rate is controlled by temp sensors which I think it is and the time it takes for sensors to record an equalized pack temp.

the main advantage of TMS as I see it is the ability to equalize and quantify pack temps quicker. In a well balanced pack, this shouldn't be an issue with passively managed packs but as we all know, that balance slowly creeps around which aggravates the issue. So LEAF BMS tends to "overshoot" its target. I have seen batt temps rise 5 mins after charge completion if charge was terminated at 35 KW or more. That is quite a bit. Is Nissan allowing for that?
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 deceased. 29,413 miles. 2018 S40; 15,000 miles, 478 GIDs, 37.0 kwh 109.81 Ahr , SOH 94.61, Hx 120.15
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WetEV
Posts: 2798
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Re: Chevrolet Bolt - 60 kWh, 238 mi, < 7s 0-60

Sat Jan 26, 2019 11:03 am

cwerdna wrote:Interesting. I do use Leaf Spy. No, it does not upload to Dropbox. I don't think I even have an account with them. I wasn't aware of the considerations you mentioned.


Dropbox can be automatic upload. Other cloud account? Other way of transferring files from your phone? In your LeafSpy app data directory on your phone there are likely a pile of old csv log files. Put these on a computer, cat them together, and load the result into a spreadsheet. Now you can make graphs vs time for temperature, SOH, and more.

Have fun. Don't forget the data accuracy of SOH is 3%, not fractions of 1%.

Remember LeafSpy will only have data points if the car is on, or charging, and when LeafSpy is connected. Unplugged and off temperatures you can only estimate.

cwerdna wrote:I can tell you that my Leaf pack temperature rarely gets up to 90 F (PH: 32 C), let alone past 95 F (PH: 35C). It might be a no more than a week or two in total for a whole year due to my temp mitigation strategies I'm able to take at work (parking in slightly underground parking that's much cooler than ground level outside air temp). It's the hot days when I'm off that's an issue.


As you are thinking about a Bolt, could your days off could be be plugged in?

cwerdna wrote:edit: I found https://www.chevybolt.org/forum/82-char ... post458729. Haven't had time to look at the threads referenced earlier.


Thanks. This gives me the real source for some CSV files I was sent sometime back.
WetEV
#49
Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
2012 Leaf SL Red (Totaled)
2014 Leaf SL Red

cwerdna
Posts: 9186
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: Chevrolet Bolt - 60 kWh, 238 mi, < 7s 0-60

Sat Jan 26, 2019 8:09 pm

Yeah, I recall manually copying off Leaf Spy .csv files or logs (not at home at the moment) from Android phones that I had to turn back in to work.

When I said "I wasn't aware of the considerations you mentioned", I was referring to TMS set points vs. dew point.
WetEV wrote:As you are thinking about a Bolt, could your days off could be be plugged in?

Yes, where I'm living, it definitely can be plugged in on hot days.

Purchase is done. Due to paperwork time and charging to full time, I'm picking it up tomorrow, after it's been washed.

I was surprised that the flat tire goop and pump are not included as we went over the car. There's a space in the trunk area for it. Dealer said they used to order them but then people didn't want to pay for it and wanted to quibble over that $. Looking at https://www.chevrolet.com/electric/bolt ... e/exterior, it appears to be a $105 option. I guess maybe a reason why people complain about the unwanted cost is that the car comes with Michelin supposedly self-sealing tires.

At least Chevy includes a set of basic floor mats and the cargo area cover (but I bought the highest trim: Premier).

Before purchasing, I sat again in the '19 front seats for a little while and they seemed fine. Were definitely an improvement over the lousy '17 front seats and I'm not wide guy. For wide people, they must've been really bad. I also picked out one on the lot making sure it had no damage. One had some light scratches on the front bumper. Another one had a build quality quirk: the front driver's side door seemed to stick out too much vs. the rear door. Others weren't like that. At least the dealer had probably 5-6 units on the lot in the color, trim and options I wanted.

I observed they had at least one of these https://www.chargepoint.com/products/commercial/cpe100/ (charging my car on that) and a bunch of other L2 EVSEs (https://www.boschevsolutions.com/chargi ... EL-51245-A and some Aerovironment round ones w/green sticker on the front). It's unlikely I'll be going back there for service or anything as they're way out of the way for me.

'19 Bolt Premier
'13 Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

LeftieBiker
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Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
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Re: Chevrolet Bolt - 60 kWh, 238 mi, < 7s 0-60

Sat Jan 26, 2019 9:51 pm

So what did you get, exactly? A (color) Premiere with (interior colors) and (options), I assume. ;-)
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

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