GregH
Posts: 857
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2011 4:16 pm
Delivery Date: 13 Jun 2011
Leaf Number: 26967
Location: Irvine, CA

Re: 2017 Prius Prime PHEV

Thu Jan 12, 2017 11:54 am

TomT wrote:Car and Driver's plus/minus summaries are pretty good:

Prius Prime:
+ Lulls you into the slow lane
+ Soft Ride
+ Lots of Back Seat Space
- Oddball Design
- Lacks' the Volt's Range
- A tortoise on the road
- Minivan handling
= Sometimes the Hare wins

Volt:
+ A better EV
+ A better hybrid
+ Better handling
+ Better looks
- Small rear seat
- Costs more
= The best plug-in hybrid yet

Bottom Line:
Prius: Ugly, slow in hybrid mode, ugly, really slow in BEV mode, roomy
Volt: Looks a bit like an Elantra, drives great, tight rear seating, quick, and worth the extra money
Winner (by a healthy margin): Volt


Lol! +1
If you have a short commute but like occasional long road trips and can stand the looks.. go for Prime!

I really like my Volt2 and think the adaptive cruise control is the greatest thing since cup holders and a heated steering wheel.

FWIW the included Volt2 120v EVSE runs fine on 240v. I actually dumped my 2nd TOU meter with SoCal Edison (originally installed for the EV1 in 1997) and am now sharing the electric clothes dryer socket charging off peak (TOU D-A) @240v 12A. With my PV and 10kWh home battery cycling I've accrued a $200 credit with Edison over the last 6 months so charging the Volt is more or less free. Just can't dry laundry at the same time.
'17 blue Volt Premier w/ACC
'12 SL black Leaf
'11 SL blue Leaf
RAV4-EV 2002-2005
Gen1 & Gen2 EV1 1997-2003
PV 2.4Kw, 10kWh lithium battery SCE TOU-DA

SageBrush
Posts: 849
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: 2017 Prius Prime PHEV

Thu Jan 12, 2017 11:58 am

GregH wrote:
TomT wrote:If you have a short commute but like occasional long road trips
Is 90 miles a long trip ? I would use about 1.2 gallons of fuel and one 5.6 kWh charge for that trip to work and back in a Prime according to the EPA.

What would you use in your Volt ?
2013 Model 'S' with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California with 63.9 Ahr after 22k miles
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado

LeftieBiker
Posts: 6556
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 31 May 2013
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: 2017 Prius Prime PHEV

Thu Jan 12, 2017 1:49 pm

It's my understanding that the Prius PHEV (whatever version) exceeds the Volt in overall fuel economy in trips longer than 100 miles.
2013 "Brilliant Silver" SV with Premium Package and no QC, and 2009 Vectrix VX-1 with 18 Leaf cells.

The most offensive, tasteless phrase in use here is "Pulled the trigger." I no longer respond to posts that use it.

GregH
Posts: 857
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2011 4:16 pm
Delivery Date: 13 Jun 2011
Leaf Number: 26967
Location: Irvine, CA

Re: 2017 Prius Prime PHEV

Thu Jan 12, 2017 2:37 pm

Yes the Prius is more efficient.. but I'm consistently getting 60+ miles of EV range out of the Volt. Most of my trips are <60mi or >300mi.

I don't know how peppy the latest Prii are, but I had a 2005 which was a perfectly capable car, the Volt is just a lot more fun.
'17 blue Volt Premier w/ACC
'12 SL black Leaf
'11 SL blue Leaf
RAV4-EV 2002-2005
Gen1 & Gen2 EV1 1997-2003
PV 2.4Kw, 10kWh lithium battery SCE TOU-DA

jjeff
Posts: 1363
Joined: Wed Jan 13, 2016 9:10 am
Delivery Date: 13 Jul 2014
Leaf Number: 422121
Location: MSP MN

Re: 2017 Prius Prime PHEV

Thu Jan 12, 2017 3:39 pm

SageBrush wrote:
LeftieBiker wrote:Can someone tell me exactly what kind of heater or heaters the Prime uses aside from the engine?
Gas heat pump for cabin heating. COP of ~ 2 at 14F and quickly rises to over 4.
The 'gas' part of the name is a partial re-cirulation of refrigerant vapor through a bypass shunt before the expansion valve. Not exactly thermodynamically intuitive but it is a well known approach that is not often built due to engineering difficulties and cost.

Really, really smart on Toyota's part since the drop in range in a cold winter is a substantial stumbling block in EV use. Toyota has engineering optimization down to a fine art, and they recognize that improving a 1000 different areas, albeit each one not by much, adds up to a superior product. This is why no other company has ever duplicated the Prius fuel economy. An Atkinson ICE helps, but is only one improvement amongst hundreds that went into the Prius -- most of them not specifically hybrid related.

The 25 miles of range from 5.6 kWh is a rare efficiency seen in the *EV market and represents the same attention to detail. It also lets them re-use a lot of the Gen4 Prius design because the battery is small(er) than competitors with ~ equal EV performance, and thus keep costs down. They really have the integrated, system-wide philosophy at the heart of the cars they build.

When you say "gas" heat pump, are you saying the gas engine must run to get heat, or can you still get heat without running the engine running, down to ~14F? What happens below 14F, does it have an electric heater or does the ICE just run then?
Our current Prius is NOT this way, the only way to get heat is via the ICE so if you want heat at any temp, the ICE must run.
2012 SL purchased used 2/'16
2013 S w/QC purchased new
Juicebox Premium 60a L1/L2 EVSE, Ebusbar 16a L1/L2 EVSE
'12 EVSEupgrade'd 20a L1/L2 EVSE, '13 EVSEupgrade'd adjustable 6-20a L2, 6-13a L1 EVSE
Zencar 13, 20, 30a L1/L2 portable EVSE
GE Durastation 30a

SageBrush
Posts: 849
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: 2017 Prius Prime PHEV

Thu Jan 12, 2017 3:48 pm

jjeff wrote:
SageBrush wrote:
LeftieBiker wrote:Can someone tell me exactly what kind of heater or heaters the Prime uses aside from the engine?
Gas heat pump for cabin heating. COP of ~ 2 at 14F and quickly rises to over 4.
The 'gas' part of the name is a partial re-cirulation of refrigerant vapor through a bypass shunt before the expansion valve. Not exactly thermodynamically intuitive but it is a well known approach that is not often built due to engineering difficulties and cost.

Really, really smart on Toyota's part since the drop in range in a cold winter is a substantial stumbling block in EV use. Toyota has engineering optimization down to a fine art, and they recognize that improving a 1000 different areas, albeit each one not by much, adds up to a superior product. This is why no other company has ever duplicated the Prius fuel economy. An Atkinson ICE helps, but is only one improvement amongst hundreds that went into the Prius -- most of them not specifically hybrid related.

The 25 miles of range from 5.6 kWh is a rare efficiency seen in the *EV market and represents the same attention to detail. It also lets them re-use a lot of the Gen4 Prius design because the battery is small(er) than competitors with ~ equal EV performance, and thus keep costs down. They really have the integrated, system-wide philosophy at the heart of the cars they build.

When you say "gas" heat pump, are you saying the gas engine must run to get heat, or can you still get heat without running the engine running, down to ~14F? What happens below 14F, does it have an electric heater or does the ICE just run then?
Our current Prius is NOT this way, the only way to get heat is via the ICE so if you want heat at any temp, the ICE must run.
The heat pump is electric, just like your refrigerator.

At low enough temperatures a heat pump has the same efficiency as a resistance heater, a COP of 1.0

This new-fangled heat pump is new to the Prime in the Prius line. I vaguely remember that the older Prius also have a small electric resistance heater for defrost mode but in general you are right -- cabin heating in your car is via ICE waste heat.
2013 Model 'S' with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California with 63.9 Ahr after 22k miles
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado

SageBrush
Posts: 849
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: 2017 Prius Prime PHEV

Thu Jan 12, 2017 3:52 pm

GregH wrote:Yes the Prius is more efficient.. but I'm consistently getting 60+ miles of EV range out of the Volt. Most of my trips are <60mi or >300mi.
And I routinely beat EPA by 30% in my car. So what ?

Compare EPA to EPA. What is your answer ? It's a simple arithmetic problem to replace uninformed fan-boyism.
2013 Model 'S' with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California with 63.9 Ahr after 22k miles
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado

GregH
Posts: 857
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2011 4:16 pm
Delivery Date: 13 Jun 2011
Leaf Number: 26967
Location: Irvine, CA

Re: 2017 Prius Prime PHEV

Thu Jan 12, 2017 8:39 pm

??
Perhaps there is more to the buying decision than over all efficiency? I wanted a car that had at least as much range as my prior 10bar Leaf. If you like the new Prius for whatever reason, buy it! For me AER was more important than MPG.
'17 blue Volt Premier w/ACC
'12 SL black Leaf
'11 SL blue Leaf
RAV4-EV 2002-2005
Gen1 & Gen2 EV1 1997-2003
PV 2.4Kw, 10kWh lithium battery SCE TOU-DA

SageBrush
Posts: 849
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: 2017 Prius Prime PHEV

Thu Jan 12, 2017 8:57 pm

GregH wrote:??

Your wrote this
If you have a short commute but like occasional long road trips ... buy a Prime

I'm asking you to back up your trollish fan-boyism with fact by figuring out energy consumptions of your volt for a 90 mile trip with one charge and to compare your results with a Prime.

I promise: no more than common core 3rd grade arithmetic is involved.
2013 Model 'S' with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California with 63.9 Ahr after 22k miles
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado

GregH
Posts: 857
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2011 4:16 pm
Delivery Date: 13 Jun 2011
Leaf Number: 26967
Location: Irvine, CA

Re: 2017 Prius Prime PHEV

Fri Jan 13, 2017 6:34 am

I think you are misinterpreting me.. I already acknowledged the Prius is a more efficient car. I know several people who routinely drive less than 20mi/day for whom the Prius might make an excellent choice. Perhaps there are also many who drive more and wouldn't mind the ICE kicking in every day (I would). For me personally AER is a key point. That's why I chose the Leaf over the Volt1 in 2011 (that and I still hadn't gotten over being burned by GM when they took away my EV1s.. Hardly a fanboy). When Volt2 came out it seemed to me they had fixed all the things I didn't like about Volt1 (more range, more power, better dashboard, better looaks, more features). Don't get me wrong though, the Prius is a great car. I helped engineer the very first lithium PHEV Prius in 2005 and my personal car was one of the test mules. I'm sure Toyota has improved on it in the last dozen years but for me the Volt2 better fit my needs/wants.
'17 blue Volt Premier w/ACC
'12 SL black Leaf
'11 SL blue Leaf
RAV4-EV 2002-2005
Gen1 & Gen2 EV1 1997-2003
PV 2.4Kw, 10kWh lithium battery SCE TOU-DA

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