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RegGuheert
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Re: 2017 Prius Prime PHEV

Mon Jan 09, 2017 7:03 am

SageBrush wrote:The 2016+ volt has 14 kWh usable.
http://gm-volt.com/forum/showthread.php ... SOC-Window
SageBrush wrote:...1.18 kW to the battery using 12A...
If you believe these two things that you wrote, then the calculation is quite simple:

14 kWh/1.18 kW = 11.86 hours to FULLY recharge the 2017 Chevy Volt to 53 miles of AER. IOW, using your numbers, many (most?) people could fully recharge the Chevy Volt every night.

But it seems my post which you "corrected" was already correct:
RegGuheert wrote:14 kWh/1.1 kW = 12.73 hours to fully charge. Certainly possible overnight in some scenarios.
So the conclusions there were also correct:
RegGuheert wrote:The Volt would achieve 25 miles of range in 6 hours, or 4.17 miles per hour of charging. A bit lower than my previous estimates and also more than your number of 3.46 miles per hour of charging.
RegGuheert
2011 Leaf SL Demo vehicle
2011 miles at purchase. 10K miles on Apr 14, 2013. 20K miles (55.7Ah) on Aug 7, 2014, 30K miles (52.0Ah) on Dec 30, 2015, 40K miles (49.8Ah) on Feb 8, 2017.
Enphase Inverter Measured MTBF: M190, M215, M250, S280

SageBrush
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Re: 2017 Prius Prime PHEV

Mon Jan 09, 2017 8:09 am

I "believe" that Apt dwellers will span the range of 8A - 12A on LI;
that L1 losses will be somewhere in the range of 18 - 23%;
and that Voltage will be within a couple percent of 120V

Take the middle of the ranges and you end up requiring about 12.5 hours to fully charge a 2016+ volt at 12A and about 19 hours at 8A.
So is the higher AER of a Volt of so much more value to an Apt dweller on L1 than the AER of a Prime ? It depends on the use case, which is the point you stubbornly refuse to grasp.

I notice you like to point out you are "right." It then seems fair to point out when you post nonsense:
you can easily support a 50-mile or longer commute in 10 hours of L1
The Volt EVSE is set by default to 8A. Every wonder why ? Your "easily within 10 hours" statement is off by as "little" as 2.5 hours or as much as 9 hours depending on the L1 wiring.


In other words, the 2017 Chevy Volt is MORE efficient at driving on electricity than the 2017 Prius Prime.
You get more miles per hour of charging with the Volt than with the Prius Prime
Because you fail to grasp that the Prime EV efficiency miles/kWh is 133/106 higher than the Volts by EPA testing of a combined cycle. If you eventually figure that out, I recommend that you then consider the effect of the Prime's advance heat pump on relative miles/kWh real world between the two cars for owners in cold climates.

You are welcome to the last comment. I am tired of talking to a wall.
2013 Model 'S' with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California with 63.9 Ahr after 22k miles
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GRA
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Re: 2017 Prius Prime PHEV

Mon Jan 09, 2017 8:06 pm

RegGuheert wrote:
GRA wrote:The Prime can fully charge its battery overnight using only L1, the Volt can't.
Nonsense. See the post immediately above.

Uh huh, and provided you can charge the car for significantly more than 8 hours and you have a large off-peak (or better yet super off-peak) window, the Volt may be able to fully charge overnight at a lower price than the Prime. But not enough to cancel out the $6k difference in price, and many areas with ToU rates have smaller super off-peak windows, say 5 hours or less. I don't know if they've changed it now, but here in the Bay Area the local utility's (PG&E) off-peak window used to extend only from 11p.m. to 7 a.m. during the week. And of course, if charging pushes your usage above the baseline amount for your area your rate is much higher, which wipes out much if not all the advantage.

RegGuheert wrote:BTW, in very cold weather, the AER of the Prius Prime is likely to be around 15 miles. (The temperature here is 7.5F as I write this!)

Sure, and the Volt's range will be lower as well. Both will likely kick the ICE on, and that's fine.

RegGuheert wrote:
GRA wrote:Reg, a renter without easy access to charging has no business buying any kind of PEV at the moment, because it's cheaper to buy gas than pay public charging prices in most areas, as well as generally more convenient. But a renter is much more likely to have access to L1 than L2 charging, unless they're renting a home with a garage and 240V dryer circuit. If I really wanted to make it work I could charge L1, although that would involve running an extension cord out a door or window (not a viable option during the heating months in winter). L2 is simply not an option for me or most apartment/condo renters.
Again, the Prius Prime offers NO benefit for a renter other than the two I listed in my first post here: lower purchase price and increased cargo capacity. the Chevy Volt offers more miles per hour of L1 charging. If a renter has access to charging at home or free charging at work or elsewhere, they will save gasoline whenever they can charge at least every 150 miles.

And are willing to take the extra time to do so, and how long will it take them to overcome the $6k deficit they started with?

RegGuheert wrote:
GRA wrote:Perhaps I should have added "based on the past reliability of Toyota and Chevrolet products over the past 40 years or so", but I assumed that was implicitly understood by all.
Sorry, but Chevrolet is the demonstrated leader when it comes to reliability of their large traction battery. Toyota is the newcomer here with virtually no track record with batteries this size. By putting in a battery pack that is less than half the capacity of that in the Chevy Volt, Toyota is ensuring that their battery will cycle more than a Volt battery would for EVERY trip under 53 miles. That indicates that the Prius Prime battery will degrade faster than the battery in the Volt. In other words, not only will the Volt save gasoline on all trips between 25 and 150 miles, but it will hold up better while doing so. That's what you get for the extra money spent on a larger battery.

Certainly you get relatively less cycling with a larger battery for the same range. OTOH, Toyota has plenty of experience building HEV packs with excellent longevity, and is also a very conservative company generally, opting for evolution rather than revolution (moon shots like the original Prius and the Mirai aside), which has made their products consistently at or near the top in reliability for decades, including this past year when they were #1 again (Lexus #1, Toyota #2). And while I have applauded GM for their very conservative practice with the Volt 1's battery, they're being a lot less conservative when it comes to the Volt 2's usable SoC range (it's somewhere in the 75-78% range vs. 65% for Volt 1), and we'll have to see how things go. What we are seeing is that the Volt's 2's reliability in other areas is significantly less than the Volt 1, which is worrying. Whether that's due to a real drop-off in quality or just a more mainstream customer demographic that isn't inclined to give GM a pass on things early adopters are willing to cut them slack on remains to be seen.


RegGuheert wrote:
GRA wrote:For those who have charging at both ends, I imagine a Prime could probably handle around 90% or more of the population's routine driving needs.
Gee, GRA, you spend a LOT of time and effort on this forum pointing out how many people do not have access to charging at EITHER end of their commute, yet here you are talking about people who have it at BOTH? That percentage is so small it is not worth discussing.'

Sure, it's limited now, but I think one of the least expensive ways to grow PEVs is to provide workplace charging. At least here in the Bay Area and other tech centers, workplace charging is becoming common. Since the millennial tech types are the main demographic going forward for PEVs, and many of them simply can't afford to buy homes yet, providing workplace and/or apartment charging will be critical to expansion, and installing workplace charging is almost certainly cheaper per car than retrofitting a much larger number of housing units, while providing L1 is cheaper than L2. As I said, those who have neither simply aren't good candidates for a PEV at this time. OTOH, if they think they may move/change jobs a lot, then having a PHEV with a relatively small and inexpensive battery gives them options at a much lower price than is the case with a larger-batteried PHEV, without penalizing them in the interim.

RegGuheert wrote:
GRA wrote:FTM, the 21 mile AER Fusion Energi outsold the LEAF last year, and the combined 2016 sales of the Fusion/C-Max Energi last year were greater than the LEAF's in any year but 2014, so there's clearly a market for a less expensive car with about this range.
Utterly irrelevant information.

Seems relevant to me, as they're both 5 passenger cars that are getting long in the tooth, and both have significant handicaps - the LEAF's are its battery and looks, the Fusion's the lack of cargo space due to the battery.

RegGuheert wrote:What is relative to this discussion is these 2016 numbers:

Chevy Volt with 53-mile AER: 24,739 cars sold in 2016
Ford Fusion Energi with 21-mile AER: 15,938 cars sold in 2016

Uh huh, and what model year were each of them introduced? 2013 for the Fords, and 2016 for the Volt 2. Now let's add the 2016 numbers for the C-Max Energi (as they share the drivetrain) to the Fusion: 15,938 + 7,957 = 23,895. So Ford, having spent oodles less dollars developing the Energi on the basic Fusion/C-Max platform than GM did on the Volt, by just shoving the battery into the cargo space, is able to sell almost as many of them as the far more electrically-capable (and more expensive) Volt, despite their lack of cargo utility and being a 3-year older design.

RegGuheert wrote:I'm pretty sure that it is the Ford Fusion Energi which will lose out to the Prius Prime this year. Virtually every specification of the Fusion Energi is inferior to that of the Prius Prime (and the Volt, for that matter).

Ford certainly needs to provide the next gen of PHEV soon. I guess we differ on what the priority of the upgrade should be. I think that they should concentrate on keeping the price down and retaining 5 pax. capability and similar range while getting the battery out of the cargo space, and you seem to feel that a more expensive car with a greater AER is the critical feature - I believe that's the driving factor for early adopters but not the mainstream (at least not with current gas prices). We'll see which of us is correct. As I've said, I expect the Prime to become the best-selling PEV this year, despite its space limitations, especially if the Fed. tax. credit goes away. But the PHEV I really want to see is a Golf GTE AWD Sportwagen, or a small CUV by somebody; as long as the pax. and especially the cargo space isn't compromised. 20+ miles AER is acceptable.
Last edited by GRA on Tue Jan 10, 2017 6:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

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TomT
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Re: 2017 Prius Prime PHEV

Tue Jan 10, 2017 12:16 pm

Car and Driver's plus/minus summaries are pretty good:

Prius Prime:
+ Lulls you into the slow lane
+ Soft Ride
+ Lots of Back Seat Space
- Oddball Design
- Lacks' the Volt's Range
- A tortoise on the road
- Minivan handling
= Sometimes the Hare wins

Volt:
+ A better EV
+ A better hybrid
+ Better handling
+ Better looks
- Small rear seat
- Costs more
= The best plug-in hybrid yet

Bottom Line:
Prius: Ugly, slow in hybrid mode, ugly, really slow in BEV mode, roomy
Volt: Looks a bit like an Elantra, drives great, tight rear seating, quick, and worth the extra money
Winner (by a healthy margin): Volt
Last edited by TomT on Tue Jan 10, 2017 4:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
59,991 miles/12 bars/289 Gids/68.54 AHr/101% SOH/101.64% Hx 7May15 w/ new Lizard (barely made the warranty).
71,770 miles/12 bars/256 Gids/59.04 AHr/88% SOH/87.92% Hx 3Mar16 at lease return.

Now driving a 2017 Volt Premier. Model 3 reserved.

jjeff
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Re: 2017 Prius Prime PHEV

Tue Jan 10, 2017 1:32 pm

^^^ the Prime would still be more economical for my families use though, even with the Volts greater EV range. As much as I'd probably like to have more range than the 20 or so miles the Prime gives in EV, it would still work for my wife's rather short 16 mile commute. She drives the Leaf for other in town driving, up to ~60 miles. Our other main use for the Prime would be road trips, one 500 mile trip in the spring, one 900 mile trip in the fall and one 3000 mile trip early winter. Just the trips alone = 4400 miles, with the Prime I'd expect 50+ MPG, same conditions with our old Prius is 47-50 MPG, I'd expect the Volt to be what, 40 mpg? For a much longer commute or a single car family(or at least one without a ~70 mile BEV) the Volt might make more sense, but not for us.
I do like the Volt styling better though, can't really stand the Prime and neither have a back seat worth a hill of beans, I'm guessing the Volt has less cargo capacity too, at least our current Prius is really good for cargo capacity and somewhat rear seat comfort, which is important for our long trips.
To me a big consideration with either is heat and now either handle needing cabin heat. If the only source of heat is the engine then again the Prime wins out as it's much more efficient when the gas engine runs and around here heat is needed at least half the year and sometimes more, I don't just want a summer EV because in reality it would be an EV less time than not.
Lastly, I'm still sold on Toyota quality and reliability. We've had very little issues with our Prius and I hardly ever had problems with my prior Scion Xb, they just worked. I've had more issues(small as they've been) with my Nissan Leaf than both our Toyotas combined and personally I don't believe Chevrolet is going to be any better than Nissan, maybe better than Ford where my mother is frequently having to have her Freestyle serviced but thats not a very high bar.
Last edited by jjeff on Tue Jan 10, 2017 1:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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LeftieBiker
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Re: 2017 Prius Prime PHEV

Tue Jan 10, 2017 1:36 pm

Can someone tell me exactly what kind of heater or heaters the Prime uses aside from the engine?
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GRA
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Re: 2017 Prius Prime PHEV

Tue Jan 10, 2017 6:42 pm

TomT wrote:Car and Driver's plus/minus summaries are pretty good:

Prius Prime:
+ Lulls you into the slow lane
+ Soft Ride
+ Lots of Back Seat Space
- Oddball Design
- Lacks' the Volt's Range
- A tortoise on the road
- Minivan handling
= Sometimes the Hare wins

Volt:
+ A better EV
+ A better hybrid
+ Better handling
+ Better looks
- Small rear seat
- Costs more
= The best plug-in hybrid yet

Bottom Line:
Prius: Ugly, slow in hybrid mode, ugly, really slow in BEV mode, roomy
Volt: Looks a bit like an Elantra, drives great, tight rear seating, quick, and worth the extra money
Winner (by a healthy margin): Volt

For C&D and other enthusiast magazines' audience, sure. Prius owners have never been C&D's audience (they're Consumer Reports readers), and they couldn't care less about performance and handling and not much about looks, but do care about cost, space, and reliability. Personally, I wouldn't want a Prime for numerous reasons (I read both CR and C&D), but there are obviously lots of people (approaching 2 million in the U.S.) who have been willing to put up with the Prius' lack of sex appeal and mediocre driving qualities over the years, and the Prime does at least improve considerably on the latter, if not to the level that would appeal to driving enthusiasts.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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TomT
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Re: 2017 Prius Prime PHEV

Tue Jan 10, 2017 8:44 pm

I've been a CR reader for decades and I have always greatly disliked the Prius... And I equally dislike the Prime.

For C&D and other enthusiast magazines' audience, sure. Prius owners have never been C&D's audience (they're Consumer Reports readers)
59,991 miles/12 bars/289 Gids/68.54 AHr/101% SOH/101.64% Hx 7May15 w/ new Lizard (barely made the warranty).
71,770 miles/12 bars/256 Gids/59.04 AHr/88% SOH/87.92% Hx 3Mar16 at lease return.

Now driving a 2017 Volt Premier. Model 3 reserved.

GRA
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Re: 2017 Prius Prime PHEV

Wed Jan 11, 2017 6:39 pm

TomT wrote:
For C&D and other enthusiast magazines' audience, sure. Prius owners have never been C&D's audience (they're Consumer Reports readers)
I've been a CR reader for decades and I have always greatly disliked the Prius... And I equally dislike the Prime.

We sound similar. I need the practical stuff, but I also want a car that can be fun to drive, and no Prius even approaches that. I insist on a car being something more than just an appliance. Still, there's obviously a large market for ones that are, and Toyota has been successfully supplying it for decades with the Corolla, Camry and Prius, vehicles that are about as un-engaging to drive as it's possible to be, but are also reliable, durable and relatively low cost, all of which tend to be high priorities among CR readers. For C&D readers, much less so, behind accel, braking, handling/ride, steering feel/feedback, driving position, ergonomics, etc. It's impossible to imagine a Prius being included in one of C&D's "Hot Hatch" comparos among the GTIs, Focus STs etc.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

SageBrush
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Re: 2017 Prius Prime PHEV

Thu Jan 12, 2017 11:30 am

LeftieBiker wrote:Can someone tell me exactly what kind of heater or heaters the Prime uses aside from the engine?
Gas heat pump for cabin heating. COP of ~ 2 at 14F and quickly rises to over 4.
The 'gas' part of the name is a partial re-cirulation of refrigerant vapor through a bypass shunt before the expansion valve. Not exactly thermodynamically intuitive but it is a well known approach that is not often built due to engineering difficulties and cost.

Really, really smart on Toyota's part since the drop in range in a cold winter is a substantial stumbling block in EV use. Toyota has engineering optimization down to a fine art, and they recognize that improving a 1000 different areas, albeit each one not by much, adds up to a superior product. This is why no other company has ever duplicated the Prius fuel economy. An Atkinson ICE helps, but is only one improvement amongst hundreds that went into the Prius -- most of them not specifically hybrid related.

The 25 miles of range from 5.6 kWh is a rare efficiency seen in the *EV market and represents the same attention to detail. It also lets them re-use a lot of the Gen4 Prius design because the battery is small(er) than competitors with ~ equal EV performance, and thus keep costs down. They really have the integrated, system-wide philosophy at the heart of the cars they build.
Last edited by SageBrush on Thu Jan 12, 2017 11:55 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California with 63.9 Ahr after 22k miles
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado

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