LeftieBiker
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Re: 2017 Prius Prime PHEV

Thu May 04, 2017 7:14 pm

If you only require heat when temps are sub-zero, that situation doesn't make the heatpump a "gimmick." You are an unusual case, to say the least. ;-)
2013 "Brilliant Silver" SV with Premium Package and no QC, and 2009 Vectrix VX-1 with 18 Leaf cells.

The most offensive, tasteless phrase in use here is "Pulled the trigger." I no longer respond to posts that use it.

LeftieBiker
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Delivery Date: 31 May 2013
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: 2017 Prius Prime PHEV

Thu May 04, 2017 7:19 pm

On a slightly off-topic note: my housemate drives a 2013 PIP. I participated in the Toyota Prius Owner's Forum for years, on her behalf (she hates the internet for the most part). I was one of the people pushing HARD for a heatpump in the PHEV, along with a heated steering wheel. So what does she do when the Prime comes out? She buys her PIP. Shortly thereafter, Toyota notified members of the group that if we talked about what we were shown (and it hadn't been anything Earth-shattering, believe me!) we would be liable for attorneys' fees for Toyota taking legal action against us, along with other darkly-hinted punishments. I opted out. Anyway, not only was I not responsible for the beating the Prime's looks have taken, I also will not be responsible for any future atrocities committed by Toyota on the Prius.
2013 "Brilliant Silver" SV with Premium Package and no QC, and 2009 Vectrix VX-1 with 18 Leaf cells.

The most offensive, tasteless phrase in use here is "Pulled the trigger." I no longer respond to posts that use it.

SageBrush
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Re: 2017 Prius Prime PHEV

Thu May 04, 2017 11:03 pm

rmay635703 wrote:I do understand how a heat pump works, but the number of days where I would want heat and it's above 15 are pretty rare

And you are quite sure that the overwhelming majority of car buyers share your behaviour ?
2013 Model 'S' with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California with 63.9 Ahr after 22k miles
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado

rmay635703
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Re: 2017 Prius Prime PHEV

Fri May 05, 2017 4:24 am

SageBrush wrote:
rmay635703 wrote:I do understand how a heat pump works, but the number of days where I would want heat and it's above 15 are pretty rare

And you are quite sure that the overwhelming majority of car buyers share your behaviour ?

Here in Wisconsin I see shorts t-shirts and sandals come out every time it gets above freezing, so yes I do see others that figure it's a nice warm day in those circumstances. For me it depends how sunny , windy and humid it is more than temp.

Maybe things are different in California

SageBrush
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Location: Colorado

Re: 2017 Prius Prime PHEV

Fri May 05, 2017 5:25 am

rmay635703 wrote:
SageBrush wrote:
rmay635703 wrote:I do understand how a heat pump works, but the number of days where I would want heat and it's above 15 are pretty rare

And you are quite sure that the overwhelming majority of car buyers share your behaviour ?

Here in Wisconsin I see shorts t-shirts and sandals come out every time it gets above freezing, so yes I do see others that figure it's a nice warm day in those circumstances. For me it depends how sunny , windy and humid it is more than temp.

Maybe things are different in California

So now you state that you are not alone. How does that extend to everybody else, or the large majority of everybody else ?
2013 Model 'S' with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California with 63.9 Ahr after 22k miles
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado

jjeff
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Leaf Number: 422121
Location: MSP MN

Re: 2017 Prius Prime PHEV

Fri May 05, 2017 5:31 am

rmay635703 wrote:
SageBrush wrote:
rmay635703 wrote:I do understand how a heat pump works, but the number of days where I would want heat and it's above 15 are pretty rare

And you are quite sure that the overwhelming majority of car buyers share your behaviour ?

Here in Wisconsin I see shorts t-shirts and sandals come out every time it gets above freezing, so yes I do see others that figure it's a nice warm day in those circumstances. For me it depends how sunny , windy and humid it is more than temp.

Maybe things are different in California

Living in the midwest I somewhat agree, which is one of the reasons I purchased a S model Leaf and also supported my bother getting a used S, but I wouldn't call the heatpump a "gimmick". It's a real feature with real benefits. Of course not below 15F when we'd actually need a lot of heat and I agree on a sunny 20-50 day we can often do without any car heat but where I've found the heat pump to be most handy is defogging the windows in the 30-55 degree range, when your FORCED to run the heat, for safety. Temps too cold to really run the more efficient AC to dehumidify the windows so you've got to run the heat, even if your running out of range.
I also think a heatpump is more needed in a vehicle like the Prime with it's smallish battery, if you want to try and make your whole trip on EV. Sure on something like the Prime you can always fall back on the ICE but to me half the fun would be trying to not start the ICE and to that the heatpump would be one more thing to help out :)
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TomT
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Re: 2017 Prius Prime PHEV

Fri May 05, 2017 7:43 am

As stated, it depends on where you live... Here in southern California I very rarely ever use heat... But since I often use A/C, a heat pump is actually a liability for me as it is less efficient at cooling than a pure A/C system... A heat pump CAN be made as efficient as a regular system at cooling but it requires an expensive proportioning valve to do so. So, far, no manufactures have seen fit to spend that money.

jjeff wrote: but I wouldn't call the heatpump a "gimmick". It's a real feature with real benefits.
59,991 miles/12 bars/289 Gids/68.54 AHr/101% SOH/101.64% Hx 7May15 w/ new Lizard (barely made the warranty).
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jjeff
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Re: 2017 Prius Prime PHEV

Fri May 05, 2017 9:15 am

TomT wrote:As stated, it depends on where you live... Here in southern California I very rarely ever use heat... But since I often use A/C, a heat pump is actually a liability for me as it is less efficient at cooling than a pure A/C system... A heat pump CAN be made as efficient as a regular system at cooling but it requires an expensive proportioning valve to do so. So, far, no manufactures have seen fit to spend that money.

jjeff wrote: but I wouldn't call the heatpump a "gimmick". It's a real feature with real benefits.

Interesting, I hadn't thought of the downside of the heatpump :)
What I have wondered about heatpump cars though is, how does it work when you push the DEFROST button? when the heat and cool are on at the same time....in this case does it use the heatpump for dehumidifying and the resistive heater for heat? I mean I can't believe the heatpump unit could both heat and cool at the same time....
2012 SL purchased used 2/'16
2013 S w/QC purchased new
Juicebox Premium 60a L1/L2 EVSE, Ebusbar 16a L1/L2 EVSE
'12 EVSEupgrade'd 20a L1/L2 EVSE, '13 EVSEupgrade'd adjustable 6-20a L2, 6-13a L1 EVSE
Zencar 13, 20, 30a L1/L2 portable EVSE
GE Durastation 30a

LeftieBiker
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Re: 2017 Prius Prime PHEV

Fri May 05, 2017 12:57 pm

When you push Defrost the resistance heater comes on. The Leaf has both heaters when equipped with the heatpump. It is possible for a heatpump to provide both heat and A/C at once, but as noted that requires some expensive valve assembly, so the Leaf can't do that. I don't know about the Prime.
2013 "Brilliant Silver" SV with Premium Package and no QC, and 2009 Vectrix VX-1 with 18 Leaf cells.

The most offensive, tasteless phrase in use here is "Pulled the trigger." I no longer respond to posts that use it.

GRA
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Re: 2017 Prius Prime PHEV

Fri May 05, 2017 3:04 pm

rmay635703 wrote:
SageBrush wrote:
rmay635703 wrote:I do understand how a heat pump works, but the number of days where I would want heat and it's above 15 are pretty rare

And you are quite sure that the overwhelming majority of car buyers share your behaviour ?

Here in Wisconsin I see shorts t-shirts and sandals come out every time it gets above freezing, so yes I do see others that figure it's a nice warm day in those circumstances. For me it depends how sunny , windy and humid it is more than temp.

Maybe things are different in California

Yes, they are.
[Mark] Twain’s most well-known remark about the weather is also something he never said: “The coldest winter I ever spent was a summer in San Francisco.” What native San Franciscan hasn’t heard this clever quip served up by a shivering, Bermuda-shorted sightseer on a fogbound Golden Gate Bridge?
https://www.anchorbrewing.com/blog/the- ... -says-who/

It all depends on what you're used to, but any tourist who comes out here in summer and expects San Francisco to be warm and sunny instead of windy, and damply cold in fog is in for a rude awakening, unless they get lucky. Unlike just about any other major metropolitan area in the northern hemisphere, the month with the highest average temps in S.F. is September rather than July or August, because the fog clears out for a week or two and S.F. has an Indian summer. The real S.F. summer high temps may only be in the low '60s, '50s or occasionally in the '40s, but I've felt far colder than I have in sub-zero temps while skiing (I've X-C skied shirtless in shorts, fingerless bike gloves and a ballcap down to 18 deg. F and been reasonably comfortable, but I have an unusual metabolism). OTOH, 10 or even five miles to the east of S.F. at the same time, you will be in warm or even hot sunny weather - some places like the Bay Area feature a multitude of micro-climates.

It's fair to say that a heat pump is of most benefit in areas with mild winters, where the temps rarely go below freezing and virtually never into the teens, which is the case in virtually all of California west of the Sierra Nevada. People who live in colder climates are naturally more used to same than those who don't and will need heat less, but cold and dry doesn't feel as cold as cool, damp and windy. I ski and almost always drive in shorts, often shirtless, but if the temp's in the low '60s or below I've probably got the heat on (I have heated seats, but in shorts they don't warm the tops of my legs, and the circulation in my toes is poor due to some frostbite damage several decades back). Heated seats and wheel are great, but they don't do it for everyone, and don't keep your face warm. Not everyone wants to wear a watch cap/toque/balaclava/full face mask while they drive!
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

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