GRA
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Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: 2017 Prius Prime PHEV

Sun Sep 03, 2017 3:55 pm

SageBrush wrote:
TomT wrote:I consider the Gen 2 Volt to be far better looking

I see a squashed frog wearing a yellow bow-tie with a goofy smile made from chrome dentures from the front of that car. <<shudder>>

And to top it off, the car would have cost me a lot more to purchase, offered less safety and functionality, polluted more and used more oil and electricity.
And sent money to one of the scummiest corporations in the country.

No. Hell no.

We can hopefully all agree that aesthetics are subjective. I agree with Tom that the Gen 2 Volt is a nice albeit quite conventional looking car, initially a bit hard for me to distinguish immediately from all the Civics and Elantras around here - now that I see them all the time (I think they've probably overtaken the Gen 1 now in frequency of sightings) I have no problem at all. As to which works best, pollution issues etc., those too are entirely a matter of individual requirements. We've done the basic calcs, which show that crossover point for the Prime to use less gas than the Volt 2 is around 160 miles between charges, but just to repeat:

25 miles AER + (53X) = 53 miles AER + (42X) [both mpg numbers assume EPA HWY, and assumes the Prime has a 'Hold' mode like the Volt's, even though it doesn't]

53X = 28 miles AER + (42X)

11X = 28 miles AER

X = 28/11 or 2.545

so 25 + 53(2.545) = 25 + 135 = 160

53 + 42(2.545) = 53 + 107 = 160
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

SageBrush
Posts: 1412
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Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: 2017 Prius Prime PHEV

Sun Sep 03, 2017 9:46 pm

GRA wrote:calc ...

Close enough for a single trip presuming EPA numbers but:

You are ignoring higher electric consumption per mile in the Volt
Your are ignoring higher tailpipe emissions in the Volt
You are ignoring the distribution of trip lengths
For reasons I don't fully understand, my Prime on-road fuel economy well exceeds EPA. Anecdotal for sure, I use about 0.75 G and 6.3 kWh (from the wall) for a 90 mile work commute. By EPA a Volt would use ~ 18 kWh and 0.88 G.

Then not to be forgotten is the much superior safety package of the Prime, and the thousands of dollars difference in car price.

I agree that looks are subjective, but since Tom thought it important to volunteer his opinion of the Prime I figured he would want my view of the Volt. And of course nothing positive can be said about GM except perhaps it is as miserable as VW
Last edited by SageBrush on Sun Sep 03, 2017 10:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
2013 Model 'S' with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California with 63.9 Ahr after 22k miles
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado

LeftieBiker
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Re: 2017 Prius Prime PHEV

Sun Sep 03, 2017 10:01 pm

GM still has a real union.
2013 "Brilliant Silver" SV with Premium Package and no QC, and 2009 Vectrix VX-1 with 18 Leaf cells.

The most offensive, tasteless phrase in use here is "Pulled the trigger." I no longer respond to posts that use it.

GRA
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Re: 2017 Prius Prime PHEV

Tue Sep 05, 2017 4:41 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:GM still has a real union.

As does VW. I long ago stopped expecting ethics to weigh heavily (if at all) in any corporation's decisions, as they are legally required to act in what they believe to be the best interests of their stockholders, and so trying to pick one out as ethically better than the others is something I rarely bother with - their management has pretty much all behaved as morally repugnant, greedy bastards at one time or another. It's when they combine stupidity with ethical failure that I take most notice, as with Nissan and their actions towards early adopters.

VW and GM both acted in morally reprehensible ways, and both nearly got away with it. While it's probable that ultimate cost to them is greater than if they'd taken the ethical action they should have at the time, I suspect the balance is closer than many of us would like to be the case.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
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Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: 2017 Prius Prime PHEV

Mon Sep 25, 2017 6:13 pm

A tepid review of the Prime via ABG, as is to be expected with anyone who values driving dynamics:
2017 Toyota Prius Prime Quick Spin | Homeliness and half-measures
There's part of the Prius Prime experience worth loving.
https://www.autoblog.com/2017/09/22/2017-toyota-prius-prime-quick-spin/

I'm not in love with the Toyota Prius Prime. But, for at least part of my time with it, I loved driving it.

The Prius Prime offers about 25 miles of all-electric driving if you pop it into EV mode and leave it there. Those are, by far, the best 25 miles you'll drive in the Prime all day (unless, of course, you're able to charge it up before going out again). Those 25 miles are quiet and smooth. In those 25 miles, good things happen when you press the accelerator. The task of modulating the pedal with the selector in "B" mode is satisfying. Even in Eco mode, the electric get-up when accelerating from a stop is the sort of feel that a classical soundtrack in allegro accompanies nicely.

When I ran out of juice, though, I was ready to be done. The buzzing of the engine is a stark contrast to the serenity of electric driving. It isn't slower, but the Prius Prime definitely feels slower as its struggling to gain speed becomes audible. . . .

There are definitely things I like about the Prius Prime, and I've considered switching to a plug-in hybrid for my next vehicle. Using the Prime in Hybrid mode, though, has me thinking I'd be happier to go fully electric. Either way, there is a sizable list of cars with and without gasoline engines that I'd rather live with than this one. . . .

He also mentioned the hard plastics, looks etc. As noted previously it's still a Prius, with all that entails both good and bad.

In an apparent attempt to make the car somewhat less 'Priusy', via plugincars.com:
Toyota’s New GR Performance Lineup Includes Sportier Version of Prius Prime Plug-in Hybrid
http://plugincars.com/toyota%E2%80%99s-new-gr-lineup-includes-sportier-version-prius-prime-plug-hybrid-133236.html

Toyota announced today that the design of the Prius Prime will add some excitement when the company introduces a high-performance version of the plug-in hybrid in Japan. While Toyota has not yet confirmed plans to launch GR option packages in the US market, the Prius Prime is the only model in the new performance GR sub-brand that is currently sold in the US. In Japan, the more stylish version of the plug-in hybrid, which offers 25 miles of all-electric range, will be called the Prius PHV GR Sport.

The new packages offer a sportier grille design, white painted brake calipers, special badging, and racing seats. The Prius GR Sport adds specially tuned suspension and a chassis stiffening brace for improved handling. The car’s interior also features a special tachometer, aluminum pedals, a Smoke Black trimmed shift knob, and a small diameter steering wheel.

The main target of the new brand is younger customers, according to Gazoo Racing President Shigeki Tomoyama. “What constitutes the heart of the Gazoo brand is a desire for challenges and to make innovations by breaking through barriers,” he said earlier this year.

Some industry observers believe that the new sub-brand, which emphasizes performance, creates a conflict with the company’s long-time focus on advanced eco-friendly cars powered by batteries and hydrogen fuel cells. However, by adding a sporty option for the Prius Prime plug-in hybrid, the company is instead signaling how it intends to expand the appeal of cars that are more efficient. . . .

While I applaud the intent, old sayings about "applying lipstick to a pig" and "If I were you, I wouldn't start from here" come to mind. It's sort of like trying to make an exciting version of the iMiEV: it may be possible, but it'd be better to use an entirely different basic platform. You can add a turbo to the Kia Soul and few will :roll: , but I suspect the same may not be true of the Prime. Short of replacing the ICE with something more powerful and quieter, and dumping the CVT for a multi-speed auto trans with paddle shifters while also doing something about the steering and brake feel, it's still going to be and look like a Prius.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
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Re: 2017 Prius Prime PHEV

Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:11 pm

Via GCR:
2017 Toyota Prius Prime real-world gas mileage, electric range review
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1113177_2017-toyota-prius-prime-real-world-gas-mileage-electric-range-review

. . . When I picked up the Prius, it had a full tank of gas but no charge left on its battery. I was only able to fully charge it once, but I put about 120 miles on in three days of varied driving.

Perhaps most importantly, all of my driving was done with little regard for maximizing fuel economy. I drove the Prius Prime like I would any other car, merely keeping up with traffic. I zipped along the President George Bush Turnpike at a clip just north of the 70 mph speed limit. I moseyed along surface streets in dense East Dallas, avoiding cyclists and dump trucks. And I tapped my thumbs for what seemed like an eternity spent on Central Expressway during rush hour.

It was warm and rainy for all three of my Dallas days, so the air conditioner and wipers were near-constant companions. I tried neither the heated seats, with their awkwardly placed switches, nor the fancy heater pump. It may only have been a 120-mile jaunt, but it was representative of every kind of daily driving one is likely to encounter.

It took just shy of 6 hours to charge the Prius Prime's 8.8-kilowatt-hour lithium-ion battery back on a regular household outlet. That's just fine if you're charging overnight in your garage or all day at work. That gave me an indicated 26 miles on a full charge, which was shockingly accurate. I drove 13 miles at about 70 mph and the computer showed 11 to go. Gentle suburban driving saw the battery give out at 25.3 miles and the gas engine near silently click on.

To a former Nissan Leaf owner who trembled at the thought of driving faster than 50 mph because of rapid battery depletion, the Prius Prime is a revelation. Overall, the Prius Prime's trip computer showed a 66.7 mpg average over 120 miles, 96 of which were with the gas engine running. I used just under two gallons of gas; the Prius Prime is rated at 55 mpg city, 53 mpg highway, and 54 mpg combined, so my result was about 10 percent under.

That's exactly what my colleague John Voelcker encountered under different circumstances in chilly New York and what he saw in a more controlled environment in California. . . .
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

SageBrush
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Re: 2017 Prius Prime PHEV

Tue Oct 10, 2017 7:15 pm

In normal use the Prime would be charged daily and the final MPG much higher.

Even though I use the car for 90 mile commutes to work which is far outside of optimal for a Prime, my lifetime average MPG is 107. That includes ~ 6.3 kWh of electricity per charge.

Viewed as a souped up hybrid , it is excellent. And of course issues of range that can occur in a BEV on longer trips or as the car ages are not a concern.
2013 Model 'S' with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California with 63.9 Ahr after 22k miles
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado

GRA
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Re: 2017 Prius Prime PHEV

Wed Oct 11, 2017 5:28 pm

SageBrush wrote:In normal use the Prime would be charged daily and the final MPG much higher.

Even though I use the car for 90 mile commutes to work which is far outside of optimal for a Prime, my lifetime average MPG is 107. That includes ~ 6.3 kWh of electricity per charge.

Viewed as a souped up hybrid , it is excellent. And of course issues of range that can occur in a BEV on longer trips or as the car ages are not a concern.

Do you run in HV or EV Auto mode for most of your (I assume freeway) commute, and if so, how much do you have left in the battery once you get off the freeway, i.e. how much does the battery get used in those modes? I'd much prefer a full hold mode so that I could use the battery only when I wanted to, but Hybrid Auto is the closest that the Prime comes to that. EV Auto could be a good option depending on how it's implemented. For a PHEV I'd personally prefer having EV Now, EV Later (i.e. Hold) and EV Auto, the last with variable setpoints for the owner to choose; EV Charging mode would be a nice to have. Defaults for EV Auto might be something like 35 mph and below use EV, 35+ use the ICE, but I'd want to be able to vary that and probably the hysteresis as well.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

SageBrush
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Re: 2017 Prius Prime PHEV

Wed Oct 11, 2017 6:36 pm

GRA wrote:
SageBrush wrote:In normal use the Prime would be charged daily and the final MPG much higher.

Even though I use the car for 90 mile commutes to work which is far outside of optimal for a Prime, my lifetime average MPG is 107. That includes ~ 6.3 kWh of electricity per charge.

Viewed as a souped up hybrid , it is excellent. And of course issues of range that can occur in a BEV on longer trips or as the car ages are not a concern.

Do you run in HV or EV Auto mode for most of your (I assume freeway) commute, and if so, how much do you have left in the battery once you get off the freeway, i.e. how much does the battery get used in those modes? I'd much prefer a full hold mode so that I could use the battery only when I wanted to, but Hybrid Auto is the closest that the Prime comes to that. EV Auto could be a good option depending on how it's implemented. For a PHEV I'd personally prefer having EV Now, EV Later (i.e. Hold) and EV Auto, the last with variable setpoints for the owner to choose; EV Charging mode would be a nice to have. Defaults for EV Auto might be something like 35 mph and below use EV, 35+ use the ICE, but I'd want to be able to vary that and probably the hysteresis as well.

My commute is an overall decline on the way out and incline on the way back so it works out well to just start the drive in EV and drive that way until battery depletion. In good weather I make it to my destination all in EV but I often end up ~ 5 miles short. People who try to switch modes as they drive are unlikely to benefit because the ICE cools down on them. This is particularly true as the weather cools.

As a rule of thumb, EV is efficient pretty much anywhere I drive but HV does better with a higher load. I don't mean extreme loads, just enough to keep the ICE in the best power band. I usually drive about 105 kph for the 30/45 miles each way on the highway and end up getting ~ 56 -- 62 mpg on the HV return leg that includes 1178 feet net climb which works out to ~ 1.5 kWh potential energy. The HV efficiency is crazy good, which in large part explains why the Prime overall does so well in mixed EV/HV driving.
2013 Model 'S' with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California with 63.9 Ahr after 22k miles
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado

GRA
Posts: 7431
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: 2017 Prius Prime PHEV

Wed Oct 11, 2017 6:51 pm

SageBrush wrote:
GRA wrote:Do you run in HV or EV Auto mode for most of your (I assume freeway) commute, and if so, how much do you have left in the battery once you get off the freeway, i.e. how much does the battery get used in those modes? I'd much prefer a full hold mode so that I could use the battery only when I wanted to, but Hybrid Auto is the closest that the Prime comes to that. EV Auto could be a good option depending on how it's implemented. For a PHEV I'd personally prefer having EV Now, EV Later (i.e. Hold) and EV Auto, the last with variable setpoints for the owner to choose; EV Charging mode would be a nice to have. Defaults for EV Auto might be something like 35 mph and below use EV, 35+ use the ICE, but I'd want to be able to vary that and probably the hysteresis as well.

My commute is an overall decline on the way out and incline on the way back so it works out well to just start the drive in EV and drive that way until battery depletion. In good weather I make it to my destination all in EV but I often end up ~ 5 miles short. People who try to switch modes as they drive are unlikely to benefit because the ICE cools down on them. This is particularly true as the weather cools.

As a rule of thumb, EV is efficient pretty much anywhere I drive but HV does better with a higher load. I don't mean extreme loads, just enough to keep the ICE in the best power band. I usually drive about 105 kph for the 30/45 miles each way on the highway and end up getting ~ 56 -- 62 mpg on the HV return leg that includes 1178 feet net climb which works out to ~ 1.5 kWh potential energy. The HV efficiency is crazy good, which in large part explains why the Prime overall does so well in mixed EV/HV driving.

I'd think the typical urban commute involve surface streets to the freeway, then a long leg on that followed by surface streets to work, and the reverse on the way home. So to me, using EV Now at each end, with HV during the freeway portion would generally give the best efficiency, assuming that the engine were on long enough to warm up. Given adjustments to suit an individual's commute, I'd think EV Auto would be able to handle that. This would also reduce emissions in the most critical areas.

Obviously individual commutes (such as yours) might have different results, but I think the above description would be generally true. Have you experimented with using the different modes for your commute to see how things change, or is it just not worth the hassle for you?
Last edited by GRA on Wed Oct 11, 2017 6:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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