edatoakrun
Posts: 4643
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:33 am
Delivery Date: 15 May 2011
Leaf Number: 2184
Location: Shasta County, North California

Re: 2017 Prius Prime PHEV

Wed Oct 11, 2017 6:52 pm

As many predicted, the incentives that make a Prime PHEV less expensive than a Prius hybrid for many buyers seem likely to be a significant factor in the rapid decline of Prius US sales this year.

The Toyota Prius Is Suffering Its Worst Sales in The Last Dozen Years

The 52-56 mpg Toyota Prius Liftback is the best it’s ever been, and it is suffering its worst sales year since 2004.

A car that has seen sales over 140,000 units in two years this decade has through the third quarter this year just 50,911 in the bag, and may finish the year at 70,000, according to analyst Alan Baum.

Last year it managed 98,863 sales...

...its own Prime plug-in stablemate is cannibalizing some sales, and its 1,899 sales last month, and 15,056 for the year mean it’s having the best year since 2012 when the the plug-in Prius was introduced – just 292 sales less than the reigning champ Chevy Volt, which it may beat this year...

http://www.hybridcars.com/the-toyota-pr ... zen-years/
no condition is permanent

GRA
Posts: 7363
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: 2017 Prius Prime PHEV

Wed Oct 11, 2017 6:55 pm

edatoakrun wrote:As many predicted, the incentives that make a Prime PHEV less expensive than a Prius hybrid for many buyers seem likely to be a significant factor in the rapid decline of Prius US sales this year.

The Toyota Prius Is Suffering Its Worst Sales in The Last Dozen Years

The 52-56 mpg Toyota Prius Liftback is the best it’s ever been, and it is suffering its worst sales year since 2004.

A car that has seen sales over 140,000 units in two years this decade has through the third quarter this year just 50,911 in the bag, and may finish the year at 70,000, according to analyst Alan Baum.

Last year it managed 98,863 sales...

...its own Prime plug-in stablemate is cannibalizing some sales, and its 1,899 sales last month, and 15,056 for the year mean it’s having the best year since 2012 when the the plug-in Prius was introduced – just 292 sales less than the reigning champ Chevy Volt, which it may beat this year...

http://www.hybridcars.com/the-toyota-pr ... zen-years/

Well the incentives, the looks and the alternatives.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

SageBrush
Posts: 1221
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: 2017 Prius Prime PHEV

Wed Oct 11, 2017 8:45 pm

GRA wrote:
SageBrush wrote:
GRA wrote:Do you run in HV or EV Auto mode for most of your (I assume freeway) commute, and if so, how much do you have left in the battery once you get off the freeway, i.e. how much does the battery get used in those modes? I'd much prefer a full hold mode so that I could use the battery only when I wanted to, but Hybrid Auto is the closest that the Prime comes to that. EV Auto could be a good option depending on how it's implemented. For a PHEV I'd personally prefer having EV Now, EV Later (i.e. Hold) and EV Auto, the last with variable setpoints for the owner to choose; EV Charging mode would be a nice to have. Defaults for EV Auto might be something like 35 mph and below use EV, 35+ use the ICE, but I'd want to be able to vary that and probably the hysteresis as well.

My commute is an overall decline on the way out and incline on the way back so it works out well to just start the drive in EV and drive that way until battery depletion. In good weather I make it to my destination all in EV but I often end up ~ 5 miles short. People who try to switch modes as they drive are unlikely to benefit because the ICE cools down on them. This is particularly true as the weather cools.

As a rule of thumb, EV is efficient pretty much anywhere I drive but HV does better with a higher load. I don't mean extreme loads, just enough to keep the ICE in the best power band. I usually drive about 105 kph for the 30/45 miles each way on the highway and end up getting ~ 56 -- 62 mpg on the HV return leg that includes 1178 feet net climb which works out to ~ 1.5 kWh potential energy. The HV efficiency is crazy good, which in large part explains why the Prime overall does so well in mixed EV/HV driving.

I'd think the typical urban commute involve surface streets to the freeway, then a long leg on that followed by surface streets to work, and the reverse on the way home. So to me, using EV Now at each end, with HV during the freeway portion would generally give the best efficiency, assuming that the engine were on long enough to warm up. Given adjustments to suit an individual's commute, I'd think EV Auto would be able to handle that. This would also reduce emissions in the most critical areas.

Obviously individual commutes (such as yours) might have different results, but I think the above description would be generally true. Have you experimented with using the different modes for your commute to see how things change, or is it just not worth the hassle for you?

I started off with fiddling and eventually realized that my required HV driving was quite a bit more efficient during the return, higher load part of my commute.

While it would seem to make sense to use EV off the highway and HV on the highway as you describe, one of the difficulties is finishing the battery charge right at the end of your drive. Errors either way, and the best laid plans do not pan out. Another fly in the ointment is that HV mode lets the driver dip into the HV reserve. I use this for the last mile or so of my final neighborhood driving. EV mode would kick me into ICE mode before that and I would have to go through the ICE warm-up again.

There is certainly a part of me that just wants to set DRCC and cruise home, but I have played around with the available systems and given thought to maximizing efficiency. I may drive differently when winter really sets in.
2013 Model 'S' with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California with 63.9 Ahr after 22k miles
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado

GRA
Posts: 7363
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: 2017 Prius Prime PHEV

Thu Oct 12, 2017 4:19 pm

SageBrush wrote:I started off with fiddling and eventually realized that my required HV driving was quite a bit more efficient during the return, higher load part of my commute.

While it would seem to make sense to use EV off the highway and HV on the highway as you describe, one of the difficulties is finishing the battery charge right at the end of your drive. Errors either way, and the best laid plans do not pan out. Another fly in the ointment is that HV mode lets the driver dip into the HV reserve. I use this for the last mile or so of my final neighborhood driving. EV mode would kick me into ICE mode before that and I would have to go through the ICE warm-up again.

There is certainly a part of me that just wants to set DRCC and cruise home, but I have played around with the available systems and given thought to maximizing efficiency. I may drive differently when winter really sets in.

Thanks for the info. I guess I'd lean towards doing the HV/EV split as I'd described, keeping enough of the battery in reserve to ensure that I'd always be able to use EV mode at each end, and accepting slightly more ICE use and lower overall efficiency so as to minimize emissions in the areas with the most people, but it's a question of individual taste and priorities, the difference probably being down in the noise. Please let us know how/if your usage changes during the winter.

BTW, I'm a bit unclear on just how EV Auto mode works on the Prime, and how it differs from HV mode. Can you give an example?
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

SageBrush
Posts: 1221
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: 2017 Prius Prime PHEV

Thu Oct 12, 2017 4:36 pm

GRA wrote:
SageBrush wrote:I started off with fiddling and eventually realized that my required HV driving was quite a bit more efficient during the return, higher load part of my commute.

While it would seem to make sense to use EV off the highway and HV on the highway as you describe, one of the difficulties is finishing the battery charge right at the end of your drive. Errors either way, and the best laid plans do not pan out. Another fly in the ointment is that HV mode lets the driver dip into the HV reserve. I use this for the last mile or so of my final neighborhood driving. EV mode would kick me into ICE mode before that and I would have to go through the ICE warm-up again.

There is certainly a part of me that just wants to set DRCC and cruise home, but I have played around with the available systems and given thought to maximizing efficiency. I may drive differently when winter really sets in.

Thanks for the info. I guess I'd lean towards doing the HV/EV split as I'd described, keeping enough of the battery in reserve to ensure that I'd always be able to use EV mode at each end, and accepting slightly more ICE use and lower overall efficiency so as to minimize emissions in the areas with the most people, but it's a question of individual taste and priorities, the difference probably being down in the noise. Please let us know how/if your usage changes during the winter.

BTW, I'm a bit unclear on just how EV Auto mode works on the Prime, and how it differs from HV mode. Can you give an example?

For my use, EV Auto is worthless. The mode turns on the (possible cold or cool) ICE to keep the electric motor out of a very high load, low efficiency state. I played with it a couple times in mountain driving and never had the ICE come on, which was fine with me.

Regarding tailipipe emissions: the Prime is a small fraction of SULEV; e.g. 20% of SULEV allowed NOx and about 12% of SULEV allowed CO
2013 Model 'S' with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California with 63.9 Ahr after 22k miles
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado

GRA
Posts: 7363
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: 2017 Prius Prime PHEV

Thu Oct 12, 2017 4:38 pm

SageBrush wrote:
GRA wrote:BTW, I'm a bit unclear on just how EV Auto mode works on the Prime, and how it differs from HV mode. Can you give an example?

For my use, EV Auto is worthless. The mode turns on the (possible cold or cool) ICE to keep the electric motor out of a very high load, low efficiency state. I played with it a couple times in mountain driving and never had the ICE come on, which was fine with me.

Regarding tailipipe emissions: the Prime is a small fraction of SULEV; e.g. 20% of SULEV allowed NOx and about 12% of SULEV allowed CO

Thanks.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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