jjeff
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Re: 2017 Prius Prime PHEV

Sun Jan 08, 2017 3:24 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:
The PiP's problem was an excessive price with an AER so short (and requiring very careful driving to prevent the ICE kicking in) that many people couldn't be bothered to plug it in (and lots of people in California bought it solely for the HOV stickers with no intention of plugging it in).


....And the engine doesn't kick in unless you nearly floor the pedal - I don't know where that idea came from, but the Prius II is like that in EV Mode...

Maybe the Prius II but with our '07 Prius in order to not have the engine come on while accelerating one needs to basically think theirs egg between your foot and the accelerator, stepping any harder than would crack the egg will result in the ICE starting. Sure you can keep the ICE from coming on during coasting or at a stop sign but it's very hard to not have the ICE come on when accelerating, but note the '07 Prius lacks the EV button of later Prius's.
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GRA
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Re: 2017 Prius Prime PHEV

Sun Jan 08, 2017 3:47 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:
The PiP's problem was an excessive price with an AER so short (and requiring very careful driving to prevent the ICE kicking in) that many people couldn't be bothered to plug it in (and lots of people in California bought it solely for the HOV stickers with no intention of plugging it in).


True enough about the AER, but if you waited for the end of model year lease sales, the PIP was cheaper than a Prius II - $179 a month with $1999 down. And the engine doesn't kick in unless you nearly floor the pedal - I don't know where that idea came from, but the Prius II is like that in EV Mode...

Per http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/toy ... rid-review

. . . The most palpable difference between the standard and PHV Priuses, then, is how a judicious right foot can direct the PHV to achieve and maintain speeds of up to 62 mph using electricity alone. Like a regular Prius, though, the PHV will fire up its internal-combustion engine if you’re not careful. The PHV’s threshold is slightly higher than the regular car’s, but anything more than genteel pressure on the go pedal—say, as might be required to enter the freeway or accelerate up a slight hill—and the 98-hp, 1.8-liter four-cylinder stirs with a decidedly unsexy moan.

Keep your driving grandmotherly, though, and a Prius PHV with a full charge can travel up to 13 miles in electric mode, which becomes considerably more novel the faster one travels. Once the battery pack is depleted, the car reverts to the conventional hybrid function of the standard Prius.

Other reviews said much the same thing. For comparison, here's what C&D said about the Prime:
. . . It also seemed odd that, in 2012, the king of hybrids produced its first Prius Plug-In with the weakest, most timid all-electric mode among competing plug-ins. . . . In 2012, just as other carmakers seduced these buyers with all-electric cars and plug-in hybrids boasting ranges of about 20 miles, Toyota finally offered them a Prius that had a charging port. But it was capable of just 6 miles of electric range—and that was only when it was driven as if an egg were under your right foot. . . .

That new configuration allows the Prius Prime to, finally, shut down the engine to allow driving the car in a pure EV mode. It’s quiet and quick at low speed, you don’t have to worry about juicing the accelerator pedal too much, and it isn’t in any way sluggish at highway speeds. . . .

Top speed in EV mode is 84 mph, which makes it more usable than the former Prius Plug-In’s (mostly theoretical) 62-mph top end in EV mode. . . .
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/201 ... ive-review

Now, I should note that C&D editors, like most people who write for car enthusiast mags, tend to be leadfeet, so YMMV. What is unquestionably true for all the reviews I've read is that the Prime offers does offer real EV driving without having to be gentle with the throttle.
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LeftieBiker
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Re: 2017 Prius Prime PHEV

Sun Jan 08, 2017 6:40 pm

Well, I've driven both a Prius II and a PIP long term, and while the II was terrible about starting the engine at the drop of a feather, the PIP really does need about 3/4 throttle. It must be lead feet in the reviews, or impatience with the Prius's acceleration, but you don't have to drive like timid grannies to keep it in EV mode. Just don't floor it or get the pedal near the floor. Steep hills may do it sooner, I suppose.
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RegGuheert
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Re: 2017 Prius Prime PHEV

Mon Jan 09, 2017 2:10 am

SageBrush wrote:I showed you the EV efficiencies to debunk your statement that miles of range per hour were the same in the Prime and the Volt. Your estimate for the Volt of 6 miles per hour is also way off for L1 charging:

A 120V, 12A outlet puts about 1.1 kW into the Volt battery. Starting from the 106 MPGe of the Volt this works out to
1.1 * 106 / 33.7 = 3.46 miles an hour of range by LI.
I don't appreciate being misquoted. Here is an actual quote:
RegGuheert wrote:No, you can easily support a 50-mile or longer commute in 10 hours of L1 since you get about 5 miles per hour of charging.
That estimate gives 10.6 hours for a full charge at L1.

Here's another way to estimate it: The Chevy Volt reserves 20% at the bottom and 13% at the top of its capacity range, meaning that only 67% of the battery is available for driving, or 12.3 kWh. At 1.1 kW, that would take 11.2 hours to fully recharge a 2017 Chevy Volt at L1. (That equates to 4.7 miles per hour of charging.)

But the point of my earlier calculation still remains: You get more miles per hour of charging with the Volt than with the Prius Prime, so the entire L1 argument is a complete red herring. (Unless you can show SOME evidence that the Prius Prime uses LESS than 67% of the battery, you are just imagining that it is more efficient than the Chevy Volt.)

Let's do one final calculation here. How far would you need to drive between charges to save gas using the 2017 Toyota Prius Prime when compare with the 2017 Chevy Volt?

25 + 54x = 53 + 42x where x equals the number of gallons used.
12x = 28
x = 2 1/3 gallons

So the 2017 Chevy Volt uses less gasoline than the 2017 Prius Prime for ALL round trips longer than 25 miles and less than 151 miles. Here's a table of possibilities:

0 to 25 miles: Volt uses slightly less electricity than the Prius Prime.
26 to 53 miles: Volt uses only electricity while Prius Prime uses some electricity and some gasoline.
54 miles to 150 miles: Volt uses 12 kWh of electricity. Prius Prime uses 5.7 kWh of electricity. Volt uses less gasoline than Prius Prime.
151 miles: Volt uses 12 kWh of electricity. Prius Prime uses 5.7 kWh of electricity. Both cars use 2 1/3 gallons of gasoline.
Over 151 miles: Volt uses 12 kWh of electricity. Prius Prime uses 5.7 kWh of electricity. Both cars use over 2 1/3 gallons of gasoline, but Prius Prime uses less.
Last edited by RegGuheert on Mon Jan 09, 2017 2:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
RegGuheert
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RegGuheert
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Re: 2017 Prius Prime PHEV

Mon Jan 09, 2017 2:48 am

GRA wrote:The Prime can fully charge its battery overnight using only L1, the Volt can't.
Nonsense. See the post immediately above.

BTW, in very cold weather, the AER of the Prius Prime is likely to be around 15 miles. (The temperature here is 7.5F as I write this!)
GRA wrote:Reg, a renter without easy access to charging has no business buying any kind of PEV at the moment, because it's cheaper to buy gas than pay public charging prices in most areas, as well as generally more convenient. But a renter is much more likely to have access to L1 than L2 charging, unless they're renting a home with a garage and 240V dryer circuit. If I really wanted to make it work I could charge L1, although that would involve running an extension cord out a door or window (not a viable option during the heating months in winter). L2 is simply not an option for me or most apartment/condo renters.
Again, the Prius Prime offers NO benefit for a renter other than the two I listed in my first post here: lower purchase price and increased cargo capacity. the Chevy Volt offers more miles per hour of L1 charging. If a renter has access to charging at home or free charging at work or elsewhere, they will save gasoline whenever they can charge at least every 150 miles.
GRA wrote:Perhaps I should have added "based on the past reliability of Toyota and Chevrolet products over the past 40 years or so", but I assumed that was implicitly understood by all.
Sorry, but Chevrolet is the demonstrated leader when it comes to reliability of their large traction battery. Toyota is the newcomer here with virtually no track record with batteries this size. By putting in a battery pack that is less than half the capacity of that in the Chevy Volt, Toyota is ensuring that their battery will cycle more than a Volt battery would for EVERY trip under 53 miles. That indicates that the Prius Prime battery will degrade faster than the battery in the Volt. In other words, not only will the Volt save gasoline on all trips between 25 and 150 miles, but it will hold up better while doing so. That's what you get for the extra money spent on a larger battery.
GRA wrote:For those who have charging at both ends, I imagine a Prime could probably handle around 90% or more of the population's routine driving needs.
Gee, GRA, you spend a LOT of time and effort on this forum pointing out how many people do not have access to charging at EITHER end of their commute, yet here you are talking about people who have it at BOTH? That percentage is so small it is not worth discussing.
GRA wrote:FTM, the 21 mile AER Fusion Energi outsold the LEAF last year, and the combined 2016 sales of the Fusion/C-Max Energi last year were greater than the LEAF's in any year but 2014, so there's clearly a market for a less expensive car with about this range.
Utterly irrelevant information. What is relative to this discussion is these 2016 numbers:

Chevy Volt with 53-mile AER: 24,739 cars sold in 2016
Ford Fusion Energi with 21-mile AER: 15,938 cars sold in 2016

I'm pretty sure that it is the Ford Fusion Energi which will lose out to the Prius Prime this year. Virtually every specification of the Fusion Energi is inferior to that of the Prius Prime (and the Volt, for that matter).
RegGuheert
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Re: 2017 Prius Prime PHEV

Mon Jan 09, 2017 3:45 am

Jeez, this feud is still going on? OK, for people with no regular access to charging, the Prime will give superior gas mileage. Unless the Volt can be fully charged at least once every hundred miles, it will give relatively mediocre fuel economy. The Prime should, like the PIP, excel at slowly rationing out the EV range to increase fuel economy in hybrid mode. So in cases where occasional but not daily charging is available, the Prime also wins, in the MPG category.
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SageBrush
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Re: 2017 Prius Prime PHEV

Mon Jan 09, 2017 4:51 am

RegGuheert wrote:Here's another way to estimate it: The Chevy Volt reserves 20% at the bottom and 13% at the top of its capacity range, meaning that only 67% of the battery is available for driving, or 12.3 kWh. At 1.1 kW, that would take 11.2 hours to fully recharge a 2017 Chevy Volt at L1. (That equates to 4.7 miles per hour of charging.)

No

The 2016+ volt has 14 kWh usable for 53 AER
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q ... 9868,d.cGw

You are welcome to go through your convoluted calc again but it is silly.
Just use the charging rate* of L1 and the MPGe. EPA uses 33.7 kWh per gallon equivalent so ...
The Volt gets 106/33.7 miles per kWh

Recap (EPA):
Prime 133 MPGe
Volt 106 MPGe

If you do not yet realize that the MPGe is a direct comparison of efficiency between two EVs, I give up..

*Caveat: Now that I look at this again, I am unsure if the MPGe of the EPA is from the wall or the battery. I'm inclined to think it is from the wall so that consumers can calculate costs and electric consumption from the utility. If this is correct then the amended miles per charge rate of the Volt on L1 is
1.4 * 106 / 33.7 = 4.4 range per hour (RPH). Then a complete charge would take 53/4.4 = a little over 12 hours.

Using the same L! assumption the Prime will be
1.4 * 133 / 33.7 = 5.53 RPH, for a complete charge in 25/5.53 = 4.52 hours.

Or the L1 circuit could be on a 10A breaker (or the default EVSE setting is used) and then the Volt gains a full charge in 19 hours
http://gm-volt.com/forum/archive/index. ... 31649.html
Keep in mind no pre-conditioning of the car is undertaken ...
Last edited by SageBrush on Mon Jan 09, 2017 5:49 am, edited 3 times in total.
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SageBrush
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Re: 2017 Prius Prime PHEV

Mon Jan 09, 2017 5:07 am

nv. duplicate post
2013 Model 'S' with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California with 63.9 Ahr after 22k miles
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado

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RegGuheert
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Re: 2017 Prius Prime PHEV

Mon Jan 09, 2017 5:23 am

LeftieBiker wrote:OK, for people with no regular access to charging, the Prime will give superior gas mileage. Unless the Volt can be fully charged at least once every hundred miles, it will give relatively mediocre fuel economy.
Let's correct that based on what I just wrote earlier today:

Unless the Prius Prime can be fully charged at least once every 150 miles, it will consume more gasoline than the Chevy Volt.
LeftieBiker wrote:The Prime should, like the PIP, excel at slowly rationing out the EV range to increase fuel economy in hybrid mode. So in cases where occasional but not daily charging is available, the Prime also wins, in the MPG category.
Based on what data?
RegGuheert
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RegGuheert
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Re: 2017 Prius Prime PHEV

Mon Jan 09, 2017 5:40 am

SageBrush wrote:The 2016+ volt has 14 kWh usable.
http://gm-volt.com/forum/showthread.php ... SOC-Window
Thanks. I stand corrected.
SageBrush wrote:*Caveat: Now that I look at this again, I am unsure if the MPGe of the EPA is from the wall or the battery. I'm inclined to think it is from the wall so that consumers can calculate costs and electric consumption from the utility. If this is correct then the amended miles per charge rate of the Volt on L1 is
1.4 * 106 / 33.7 = 4.4 range per hour (RPH). Then a complete charge would take 53/4.4 = a little over 12 hours.

Using the same L! assumption the Prime will be
1.4 * 133 / 33.7 = 5.53 RPH, for a complete charge in 25/5.53 = 4.52 hours.

Or the L1 circuit could be on a 10A breaker (or the default EVSE setting is used) and then the Volt gains a full charge in 19 hours
http://gm-volt.com/forum/archive/index. ... 31649.html
Keep in mind no pre-conditioning of the car is undertaken ...
Your calcs are incorrect because you are using an efficiency which was measured using L2 to do a calculation with L1 charging. That's incorrect and is the reason why you had been coming up with ridiculously long charging times for the Chevy Volt.. And, no, you cannot get more than about 1.1 kW into the battery from an L1 source limited to 12A, so this calculation is not correct, either.

The correct calculation for the Volt then becomes:

14 kWh/1.1 kW = 12.73 hours to fully charge. Certainly possible overnight in some scenarios.

The Volt would achieve 25 miles of range in 6 hours, or 4.17 miles per hour of charging. A bit lower than my previous estimates and also more than your number of 3.46 miles per hour of charging.

We need to know the usable battery capacity in the Prius Prime to see how long it will take to fully recharge at L1.
RegGuheert
2011 Leaf SL Demo vehicle
2011 miles at purchase. 10K miles on Apr 14, 2013. 20K miles (55.7Ah) on Aug 7, 2014, 3K miles (52.0Ah) on Dec 30, 2015, 40K miles (49.8Ah) on Feb 8, 2017.
Enphase Inverter Measured MTBF: M190, M215, M250, S280

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