jjeff
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Re: 2017 Prius Prime PHEV

Sun Jan 08, 2017 7:55 am

So does anyone know if the Prime has morning warmup like the Leaf? and to keep it fair since this thread seems to be turning into a Prime vs Volt thread, does the Volt have morning warmup?
As someone won't gotten used to this feature on my Leaf I'd hate to lose that feature, along with the heated steering wheel which IMO is one of the nicest features of the Leaf 8-) ya it's cold in MN again today :(
2012 SL purchased used 2/'16
2013 S w/QC purchased new
Juicebox Premium 60a L1/L2 EVSE, Ebusbar 16a L1/L2 EVSE
'12 EVSEupgrade'd 20a L1/L2 EVSE, '13 EVSEupgrade'd adjustable 6-20a L2, 6-13a L1 EVSE
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RegGuheert
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Re: 2017 Prius Prime PHEV

Sun Jan 08, 2017 8:00 am

SageBrush wrote:Ignore leasing as a tax credit convenience for this discussion because the two cars do not have the same APRs and residuals.

FuelEconomy.gov is not doing a good job these days ...
Here are the Monroney stickers for each car
https://priuschat.com/threads/monroney- ... st-2474584
Bait and swap now? We were comparing the gas mileage of a Prius and a Prius Plugin, which I did multiple ways. I already conceded in the very first post I made in this thread that the Prius Prime would go farther on gasoline than a Chevy Volt:
RegGuheert wrote:- It goes 29% farther on a gallon of gas than the Volt 2.
SageBrush wrote:You need to get out more. Read the Volt and Prime forums a little and you will quickly see that the Volt buyers prize the higher AER and 0-60 times while the Prime buyers discount or ignore those aspects of the car.
Funny. I never once mentioned 0-60 times.
SageBrush wrote:There are a slew of other priorities that differ between these two groups but you should start with the obvious ones. Models can only be compared in the context of what buyers care about. I usually do not bring my example to discussions because I am an outlier in too many ways but in this case I may be instructive: I am buying two *EVs this year: the LEAF bought last month and a Prime anticipated in February. The Volt is a 'tweener that poorly serves most of my family's use cases.
I'm sure you will be happy with both the Prius Prime and the LEAF. We have a similar mix here: MY2011 LEAF and 2003 Honda Civic Hybrid. If I were purchasing a companion for the LEAF, I can see going with the Prius Prime, since we tend to use the Honda Civic for long trips. But I can also see us purchasing the Chevy Volt.
RegGuheert
2011 Leaf SL Demo vehicle
2011 miles at purchase. 10K miles on Apr 14, 2013. 20K miles (55.7Ah) on Aug 7, 2014, 30K miles (52.0Ah) on Dec 30, 2015, 40K miles (49.8Ah) on Feb 8, 2017.
Enphase Inverter Measured MTBF: M190, M215, M250, S280

SageBrush
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Re: 2017 Prius Prime PHEV

Sun Jan 08, 2017 9:34 am

I showed you the EV efficiencies to debunk your statement that miles of range per hour were the same in the Prime and the Volt. Your estimate for the Volt of 6 miles per hour is also way off for L1 charging:

A 120V, 12A outlet puts about 1.1 kW into the Volt battery. Starting from the 106 MPGe of the Volt this works out to
1.1 * 106 / 33.7 = 3.46 miles an hour of range by LI.

So a person who wants to use all the Volt range routinely but is limited to L1 will require over 15 hours a day of charging. That is the problem that would be renters who live e.g in apartments with only L1 facilities will face if the Volt AER prompted their purchase.

The Prime buyer is limited say to 25 miles, which then works out to 25 / (1.1*133/33.7) = under 6 hours a day of LI charging to maximize their AER

LI workplace charging fits the Prime well and leaves the Volt underutilized in many scenarios.
2013 Model 'S' with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California with 63.9 Ahr after 22k miles
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado

jjeff
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Re: 2017 Prius Prime PHEV

Sun Jan 08, 2017 9:49 am

Geez give it up guys, time to move on :roll:
2012 SL purchased used 2/'16
2013 S w/QC purchased new
Juicebox Premium 60a L1/L2 EVSE, Ebusbar 16a L1/L2 EVSE
'12 EVSEupgrade'd 20a L1/L2 EVSE, '13 EVSEupgrade'd adjustable 6-20a L2, 6-13a L1 EVSE
Zencar 13, 20, 30a L1/L2 portable EVSE
GE Durastation 30a

SageBrush
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Re: 2017 Prius Prime PHEV

Sun Jan 08, 2017 10:14 am

RegGuheert wrote:I'm sure you will be happy with both the Prius Prime and the LEAF. We have a similar mix here: MY2011 LEAF and 2003 Honda Civic Hybrid. If I were purchasing a companion for the LEAF, I can see going with the Prius Prime, since we tend to use the Honda Civic for long trips. But I can also see us purchasing the Chevy Volt.
I spoke sloppily. I actually have reservations for the both the Prime and the Tesla M3 and will buy one or the other. It depends on whether my workplace decides to allow charging and how much I am bowled over by the Tesla. Needless to say, the M3 is likely to be a whole lot more car on paper but if I can charge at work the LEAF can be driven for that task and then the Prime becomes excellent value and utility for my other uses.

Just another example of why feature lists of cars (let alone relying on ONE feature) is just not really useful.
2013 Model 'S' with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California with 63.9 Ahr after 22k miles
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado

GlennD
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Re: 2017 Prius Prime PHEV

Sun Jan 08, 2017 11:07 am

I asked to charge at work. Obviously my email to the Communications Officer at the City of Long Beach was forwarded. I received permission from the Office of Sustainability (whatever that is).

Realistically I could have only charged at home since the whole commute was 40 miles but I split the charging. For sure I exceeded the original Plug in Prius's range but the Leaf worked for me.

Now that I am retired even the Prius would work for me since I do not drive that much.
2012 Cayenne Red SL traded for:
2013 Pearl White SL Premium
Traded for a Cirrus White 2014 Mercedes B (totaled)
2016 Urano Gray eGolf SEL w/ drive assist
Loved the VW but it sat too low for my old body
Back to a Cirrus White 2017 B250E

LeftieBiker
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Re: 2017 Prius Prime PHEV

Sun Jan 08, 2017 1:18 pm

I'm also curious about the Prime and whether or not it has a heated steering wheel, which is a deal-breaker for me when absent. As for 'morning warmup': someone somewhere said the Prime now has a (available?) heat pump , but I've seem nothing to confirm this. AFAIK you have to run the Prime to get heat, just like the PIP.
2013 "Brilliant Silver" SV with Premium Package and no QC, and 2009 Vectrix VX-1 with 18 Leaf cells.

The most offensive, tasteless phrase in use here is "Pulled the trigger." I no longer respond to posts that use it.

GRA
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Re: 2017 Prius Prime PHEV

Sun Jan 08, 2017 2:46 pm

RegGuheert wrote:
GRA wrote:84% of the Volt's price, or more importantly from the customer's viewpoint, base MSRP of $6k less,...
Let's see the actual numbers:

2017 Chevy Volt base price: $33,200
2017 Chevy Volt federal tax credit: $7500
2017 Chevy Volt final price: $25,700

2017 Toyota Prius Prime base price: $27,100
2017 Toyota Prius Prime federal tax credit: $4500
2017 Toyota Prius Prime final price: $22,600

Difference: $3,100 2017 ToyotaPrius Prime is 88% of the price of the 2017 Chevy Volt

Uh huh, but that assumes that

1. You qualify for the full tax credit (a lot of the people who could afford the Prime but not the Volt don't), and

2. The tax credits won't get repealed even before the companies reach their sales limits (which GM will reach much earlier than Toyota).

RegGuheert wrote:
GRA wrote:Plus, there's little reason that anyone using the car for commuting and charging at home and/or work needs to charge beyond L1, saving the cost and hassle of upgrading circuits/buying an L2 EVSE...
It seems you haven't thought this through carefully. Miles gained per hours at a given charging rate is ONLY a function vehicle efficiencies (both charging and running efficiencies). Chevy Volt travels 53 miles using an 18.4 kWh battery or 2.88 miles/kWh. Toyota Prius Prime travels 25 miles using an 8.8 kWh battery for 2.84 miles/kWh. In other words, the 2017 Chevy Volt is MORE efficient at driving on electricity than the 2017 Prius Prime. Assuming they have equally-efficient chargers at L1 speeds, then the Chevy Volt will travel FARTHER each day using L1 than the 2017 Prius Prime. Note that there are other very good reasons to install a L2 charger, plus it improves charging efficiency.

Sure, L2 improves charging efficiency, and also allows you to make more spur of the moment trips when your battery's mostly depleted, but that's never going to outweigh the extra cost and hassle of providing L2, for renters. The Prime can fully charge its battery overnight using only L1, the Volt can't. If you need more than the Prime's range, then it might make sense for you to opt for a PHEV with a longer range and L2, although at current gas prices it's unlikely to make economic sense (especially without subsidies). If you don't need the range, then the extra 10-15% efficiency of L2 is nice, but not nowhere near enough to make back the extra cost of the car and EVSE/circuit upgrade.

RegGuheert wrote:
GRA wrote:...and making far more sense for renters,...
:?: Nonsense. A renter without easy access to an L2 (or L1) EVSE would be better served by a Volt than Prius Prime.

Reg, a renter without easy access to charging has no business buying any kind of PEV at the moment, because it's cheaper to buy gas than pay public charging prices in most areas, as well as generally more convenient. But a renter is much more likely to have access to L1 than L2 charging, unless they're renting a home with a garage and 240V dryer circuit. If I really wanted to make it work I could charge L1, although that would involve running an extension cord out a door or window (not a viable option during the heating months in winter). L2 is simply not an option for me or most apartment/condo renters.

RegGuheert wrote: In the Volt, those with very short commutes could charge only on weekends and then commute all week on electricity. With a longer commute, they could charge on the weekend and then again once during the week. With the Prius Prime, a renter will ALWAYS be looking for a place to charge (or, more likely, will simply just burn gasoline always due to the hassle of having to charge away from home so often)

See above.

RegGuheert wrote:
GRA wrote:...and the Prime's virtually guaranteed to be more reliable than the Volt.
No, it's not. We have no data on the reliability of the 2017 Toyota Prius Prime.

Perhaps I should have added "based on the past reliability of Toyota and Chevrolet products over the past 40 years or so", but I assumed that was implicitly understood by all.

RegGuheert wrote:
GRA wrote:For anyone who's routine daily driving range can be handled by the Prime, the Volt battery pack's extra weight and cost are useless, and the Prime's more efficient in CS mode (and maybe in CD mode) as a result.
This was the same argument used for the Toyota Plug in Prius. People thought: "I only have a 5-mile commute, so this will be perfect." Those same people never thought to look at how many miles they drive each year. Those suckers ended up paying over $10,000 more for a vehicle which had marginally better efficiency than a normal Prius. The Prime is a step in the right direction, but I suspect there aren't enough drivers with sub-12-mile-one-way commutes who never go anywhere else during their daily routine to make this attractive. This is why I predict these cars will clog EVSEs.

The data don't back you up. After all, When GM was determining what AER to give the Gen 1 Volt, they found that the routine daily driving mileage of 50% of U.S. drivers was 20 miles or less, 75% was 35 miles or less, and 78% was 40 miles or less. They decided to aim for about 75-80%, but there's a huge market for a less expensive PHEV that can meet 50% of U.S. driver's needs, as there were 214 million licensed drivers in the U.S. as of 2014. For those who have charging at both ends, I imagine a Prime could probably handle around 90% or more of the population's routine driving needs. FTM, the 21 mile AER Fusion Energi outsold the LEAF last year, and the combined 2016 sales of the Fusion/C-Max Energi last year were greater than the LEAF's in any year but 2014, so there's clearly a market for a less expensive car with about this range. The PiP's problem was an excessive price with an AER so short (and requiring very careful driving to prevent the ICE kicking in) that many people couldn't be bothered to plug it in (and lots of people in California bought it solely for the HOV stickers with no intention of plugging it in). Of course, there were lots of Volts bought as company cars that were never plugged in either, as their drivers were reimbursed for gas but not for electricity.

RegGuheert wrote:
GRA wrote:It would certainly sell _better_ if it looked more normal, but I expect it will sell just fine...
I suspect you are correct here. Hey, people even purchased the PiP, and this is a big improvement over that car.

it is indeed, in every way except looks (and cargo/pax area).
Last edited by GRA on Sun Jan 08, 2017 4:03 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

jjeff
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Re: 2017 Prius Prime PHEV

Sun Jan 08, 2017 3:13 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:I'm also curious about the Prime and whether or not it has a heated steering wheel, which is a deal-breaker for me when absent. As for 'morning warmup': someone somewhere said the Prime now has a (available?) heat pump , but I've seem nothing to confirm this. AFAIK you have to run the Prime to get heat, just like the PIP.

That wouldn't be so good here for short trips where you need heat, if not for heat then defrosting, the engine would be basically running all the time. One of the reasons I wasn't sold on the Ford Cmax PHEV when I looked at a few winters ago, the engine never shut off due to the call for heat, not very cold weather friendly for sure. If that's the case with the Prime then it's basically only a potential EV for ~5 months around here :( Our regular Prius is the same, the engine rarely shuts off even at stop signs in the winter, due to a call for heat. If I'm waiting for someone for more than a couple minutes I'll turn off the climate control, which immediately turns off the engine. This was one of the things that drove me to an all EV car, no potential for the engine to come on if I didn't want it, I'm pretty sure the Volt also needs the engine for heat although I'm not positive. I do know the Volt will run the ICE if it wants to, even if I didn't want it, something about not letting the gas get old....
2012 SL purchased used 2/'16
2013 S w/QC purchased new
Juicebox Premium 60a L1/L2 EVSE, Ebusbar 16a L1/L2 EVSE
'12 EVSEupgrade'd 20a L1/L2 EVSE, '13 EVSEupgrade'd adjustable 6-20a L2, 6-13a L1 EVSE
Zencar 13, 20, 30a L1/L2 portable EVSE
GE Durastation 30a

LeftieBiker
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Re: 2017 Prius Prime PHEV

Sun Jan 08, 2017 3:16 pm

The PiP's problem was an excessive price with an AER so short (and requiring very careful driving to prevent the ICE kicking in) that many people couldn't be bothered to plug it in (and lots of people in California bought it solely for the HOV stickers with no intention of plugging it in).


True enough about the AER, but if you waited for the end of model year lease sales, the PIP was cheaper than a Prius II - $179 a month with $1999 down. And the engine doesn't kick in unless you nearly floor the pedal - I don't know where that idea came from, but the Prius II is like that in EV Mode...
2013 "Brilliant Silver" SV with Premium Package and no QC, and 2009 Vectrix VX-1 with 18 Leaf cells.

The most offensive, tasteless phrase in use here is "Pulled the trigger." I no longer respond to posts that use it.

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