GRA
Posts: 7365
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Battery-electric bus discussion

Fri Oct 21, 2016 4:11 pm

Via IEVS:
TARC Becomes One Of The Largest EV Bus Operators With 15 Proterras
http://insideevs.com/tarc-becomes-one-l ... proterras/

H'mm, Louisville, KY. In 2015, 87% of Kentucky's electricity was produced by coal. Maybe some small improvement in downtown air quality, maybe not so good overall. Along that line:
Mitch McConnell’s Drive to Keep the Coal Fires Burning
http://takingnote.blogs.nytimes.com/201 ... ning/?_r=0
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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RegGuheert
Posts: 5548
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2012 4:12 am
Delivery Date: 16 Mar 2012
Leaf Number: 5926
Location: Northern VA

Re: Battery-electric bus discussion

Wed Nov 02, 2016 6:02 pm

Proterra now has cost comparisons on their website:

Image

Man, those things are expensive! In any case, I wonder how confident they are that they can achieve a 12-year life from their batteries. I'm sure the technology will get there, but I'm not convinced it is there today.
RegGuheert
2011 Leaf SL Demo vehicle
2011 miles at purchase. 10K miles on Apr 14, 2013. 20K miles (55.7Ah) on Aug 7, 2014, 30K miles (52.0Ah) on Dec 30, 2015, 40K miles (49.8Ah) on Feb 8, 2017.
Enphase Inverter Measured MTBF: M190, M215, M250, S280

GRA
Posts: 7365
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Battery-electric bus discussion

Wed Nov 02, 2016 6:31 pm

RegGuheert wrote:Proterra now has cost comparisons on their website:

Man, those things are expensive! In any case, I wonder how confident they are that they can achieve a 12-year life from their batteries. I'm sure the technology will get there, but I'm not convinced it is there today.

Yeah, and will they warranty that - the website says the battery has a 6 year warranty (presumably parts and materials, not capacity), but "extended warranties and service contracts available upon request". BYD has been claiming that their batteries will last twelve years, but I don't believe I've seen anything that would indicate that there's a capacity warranty for that period of time (or any other).
Last edited by GRA on Thu Nov 03, 2016 4:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

smkettner
Posts: 6999
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2010 10:13 pm
Delivery Date: 26 Feb 2014
Location: Orange County, CA

Re: Battery-electric bus discussion

Wed Nov 02, 2016 7:48 pm

So use the older buses on a shorter route or charge more frequently.
1 bar lost at 21,451 miles, 16 months.
2 bar lost at 35,339 miles, 25 months.
LEAF traded at 45,400 miles for a RAV4-EV

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RegGuheert
Posts: 5548
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2012 4:12 am
Delivery Date: 16 Mar 2012
Leaf Number: 5926
Location: Northern VA

Re: Battery-electric bus discussion

Thu Nov 03, 2016 4:23 am

smkettner wrote:So use the older buses on a shorter route or charge more frequently.
Agreed that is the best operational approach to capacity fade in BEV buses. Still, I wonder if you can really get 12 years of daily use out of any of today's batteries.

Also, looking at the chart that I posted, I have to say that there is a real discrepancy between the graph and the words written on the graph. The words say "$448K versus diesel" but the graph says $175K. The words say "$409K versus CNG" but the graph says $150K. The words say "459K versus hybrid" but the words say $380K. Caveat emptor, I suppose.
RegGuheert
2011 Leaf SL Demo vehicle
2011 miles at purchase. 10K miles on Apr 14, 2013. 20K miles (55.7Ah) on Aug 7, 2014, 30K miles (52.0Ah) on Dec 30, 2015, 40K miles (49.8Ah) on Feb 8, 2017.
Enphase Inverter Measured MTBF: M190, M215, M250, S280

GRA
Posts: 7365
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Battery-electric bus discussion

Thu Nov 03, 2016 4:30 pm

RegGuheert wrote:
smkettner wrote:So use the older buses on a shorter route or charge more frequently.
Agreed that is the best operational approach to capacity fade in BEV buses. Still, I wonder if you can really get 12 years of daily use out of any of today's batteries.

Also, looking at the chart that I posted, I have to say that there is a real discrepancy between the graph and the words written on the graph. The words say "$448K versus diesel" but the graph says $175K. The words say "$409K versus CNG" but the graph says $150K. The words say "459K versus hybrid" but the words say $380K. Caveat emptor, I suppose.

You have to start from the base of fuel and maintenance, i.e. ignoring the vehicle cost ("lifetime operational savings") to get their numbers.

Restricting vehicles to only shorter routes as they age is a lot better in theory than practice. It can make scheduling and dispatching a royal pain, and lead to missed trips if you don't have the right vehicle available at the right time. If you've got a large fleet you may be able to make it work, but with medium and smaller size fleets it may well wind up costing you more, as you have to try to rent to cover the shortfalls.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

smkettner
Posts: 6999
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2010 10:13 pm
Delivery Date: 26 Feb 2014
Location: Orange County, CA

Re: Battery-electric bus discussion

Thu Nov 03, 2016 7:01 pm

Or just use them at rush hour on the busiest routes. Then you can charge twice a day.
Or have some trolley poles added to charge enroute. Plenty of options.
The money for batteries will probably be better spent on a new lower cost bus with more range and features.

Will know more as we travel. Enjoy the journey because there is no real end destination here.
1 bar lost at 21,451 miles, 16 months.
2 bar lost at 35,339 miles, 25 months.
LEAF traded at 45,400 miles for a RAV4-EV

GRA
Posts: 7365
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Battery-electric bus discussion

Wed Nov 16, 2016 6:02 pm

Via GCC:
California ARB awards funding to San Joaquin Valley Air Pollution Control District to deploy 15 Proterra electric buses
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2016/11 ... 6-arb.html

The California Air Resources Board (CARB) awarded funding to the San Joaquin Valley Air Pollution Control District (SJVAPCD) to deploy 15 Proterra Catalyst buses; 11 Proterra depot-chargers; and 4 Proterra fast-chargers.

Proterra will deploy its buses and charging stations throughout the Valley, including the City of Visalia Transit Division, Fresno County Rural Transit Agency, California State University Fresno, San Joaquin Regional Transit District and City of Modesto Transit Services, helping to significantly reduce harmful emissions and clean the air in the San Joaquin Valley. . . .
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
Posts: 7365
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Battery-electric bus discussion

Tue Nov 29, 2016 5:46 pm

Via GCC:
London transport operator Go-Ahead adds two Irizar electric i2e buses to fleet after successful operating results
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2016/11 ... rizar.html

. . . For over a year, these two buses have been operating on the busy routes 507, connecting Waterloo Station with Victoria Station, and 521, which connect Waterloo Station with London Bridge Station. The operating data has successfully fulfilled the objectives requested. With this change, both buses will begin to operate for longer periods on the 108 route which runs from Stratford International Station to Lewisham Station with different operating conditions. In addition, Irizar will offer comprehensive maintenance of the buses. . . .

The main features of the two 12m buses include a continuous low floor and two double doors with an electric ramp located in the central door. A 282 kWh battery pack powers a 180 kW motor; operating range is between 160 km and 180 km (99 to 112 miles) under London traffic conditions. The buses also incorporate a heating-cooling unit for the driver area and complete anti-vandalism locks.

The buses have 26 seats + 1 PMR seat and a total capacity of 60 people. The vehicles also incorporate all the on-board fleet management systems and telemetry which are standard in London buses. . . .


I include the following link solely because of the comment referencing the movie below, which I have absolutely no memory of:
Volvo launches the world’s largest bus; 30m, 300 passengers
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2016/11 ... volvo.html

Link to "The Big Bus" movie trailer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68dTwJNvE1E Wiki entry: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Big_Bus

How on earth did I miss this at the time? It was "Airplane!" before "Airplane!", and just look at the cast!
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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TonyWilliams
Posts: 10025
Joined: Sat Feb 19, 2011 1:48 am
Location: San Diego
Contact: Website

Re: Battery-electric bus discussion

Sat Dec 03, 2016 10:58 am

Hydrogen busses are only 1.4 times than diesel:

http://evobsession.com/report-hydrogen- ... sel-buses/

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