User avatar
RegGuheert
Posts: 6252
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Delivery Date: 16 Mar 2012
Leaf Number: 5926
Location: Northern VA

Re: Battery-electric bus discussion

Fri May 11, 2018 6:49 pm

AVM 27' electric shuttles fully charge 50-60-kWh batteries in 10 minutes:
InsideEVs wrote:The AVM EV27 is mid-size 27-foot long shuttle for loop-based routes supporting corporate and school campuses, hotels and rental car facilities, airports, and affording “first/last mile” solutions to private communities.

The vehicle stands out due to its 350 kW ultra-fast charging through CCS Combo in less than 10 minutes.
I've only ever heard of chemistries which can withstand 10,000 full cycles out there, which could yield a few years of cycling in such operations, but the article claims that the LTO chemistry used here can withstand 20,000:
AVM as quoted by InsideEVs wrote:“AVM’s exclusive joint venture is powered by Yinlong Energy, one of the world’s leading energy manufacturers and innovators. AVM shuttles are powered by Yinlong’s proprietary lithium–titanate battery (LTO) technology. An extremely safe and long-lasting lithium-based technology, LTO cells can endure more than 20,000 cycles, ensuring the batteries’ lifespan exceeds that of the vehicle. This robust and proven technology takes full advantage of AVM’s 350 kW CCS 2.0 high-powered charger, enabling the EV27’s rapid charge time.
In fact, the following cycle-life curve at the AVM website indicates WAY more than 20,000 cycles with less than 10% degradation:

Image

One possible issue with 350-kW chargers is the risk of fire at the charging point. Clearly this technology is improving steadily, but I think there will be some growing pains as well as issues related to wear that occurs with connectors used so frequently at such high power levels. I suspect roof-mounted high-current contacts will tend to be more successful in many applications (except in the case of snow and ice). We'll have to see how things play out.
RegGuheert
2011 Leaf SL Demo vehicle
10K miles: Apr 14, 2013, 20K miles (55.7Ah): Aug 7, 2014, 30K miles (52.0Ah): Dec 30, 2015, 40K miles (49.8Ah): Feb 8, 2017, 50K miles (47.2Ah): Dec 7, 2017.
Enphase Inverter Measured MTBF: M190, M215, M250, S280

GRA
Posts: 8906
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Battery-electric bus discussion

Wed May 16, 2018 5:29 pm

Via GCC:
San Francisco commits to all-electric bus fleet By 2035; MUNI Board approves pilot program
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2018/05/20180516-muni.html

. . . SFMTA will only purchase all-electric buses starting in 2025 to meet the goal for 2035.

The SFMTA Board of Directors on Tuesday approved a resolution supporting the commitment towards an all-electric bus fleet along with a pilot program to evaluate and implement battery electric vehicles. MUNI currently operates the largest fleet of electric trolley buses.

The trolley buses, like all light rail, streetcar, and cable car vehicles in the city, run on Hetch Hetchy hydroelectricity via overhead wires. MUNI also runs a fleet of hybrid electric vehicles which use renewable diesel. . . .

The SFMTA has been rolling out new electric hybrid buses with higher capacity on-board battery systems. The increased on-board battery capacity will allow the SFMTA to run a test program to operate “Green Zones” along several electric hybrid routes that would run only by battery for significant portions of the route. The “Green Zone” signifies an area in which the vehicle will not produce any emissions. The SFMTA is working to identify these zones throughout the city.

The SFMTA said it will move forward with electric bus technology when manufacturers can prove their electric buses can withstand heavy ridership and the steep hills characteristic of San Francisco. The agency would also have to consider new facilities that can charge a large fleet and developing a systemwide infrastructure to charge vehicles in service or on the street.

    While the battery technology is emerging rapidly, it isn’t quite ready for primetime. Manufacturers aren’t yet producing the number of all-electric buses San Francisco and other urban areas would need, nor could we guarantee that the vehicles would work for the required 15 years with heavy ridership and challenging topography.

    —John Haley, SFMTA’s Transit Director

In 2019, the SFMTA intends to purchase a limited number of battery electric buses and test them in service throughout San Francisco to evaluate how they perform on crowded and hilly routes. SFMTA said that the most important step to support the zero-emission goal is to determine the infrastructure needs for electric buses, including upgrades for existing facilities to accommodate charging requirements and maintenance.

Of the nearly 900 all-electric buses purchased across the country, only 207 are actually in service, SFMTA said. By contrast, MUNI is currently operating 250 electric trolley vehicles. . . .

San Francisco’s transportation sector generates approximately 46% of the City’s total greenhouse gas emissions, mostly generated by the use of private cars and commercial trucks. MUNI carries 26% of all trips in the city, but accounts for less than two percent of these emissions.

On 19 April 2018, Mayor Mark Farrell committed San Francisco to net-zero greenhouse gas emission by 2050.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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Re: Battery-electric bus discussion

Sun May 20, 2018 3:38 pm

IEVS:
Proterra Switches To SAE J3105 Standard For Overhead Charging
https://insideevs.com/proterra-switches-to-sae-j3105-standard-for-overhead-charging/

Proterra, who as one of the first to introduce its roof-fast charging system (proprietary one, for a 10-minute recharge – see photo above) is now turning to SAE J3105 standard (OppCharge – see photo below). Previously, in 2016, Proterra opened patents covering its solution.

The new Proterra Catalyst buses will be offered with:

SAE J1772 CCS combo (IEC Type 1) inlet
SAE J3105 Overhead Charging Standard

The SAE J3105 will enable sending of up to 500 kW of power, while the J1772 Combo will be used for 60 or 125 kW charging. According to Proterra, buses will be ready for bi-directional, vehicle-to-grid power flow (V2G), for smart-grid purposes. . . .
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

User avatar
RegGuheert
Posts: 6252
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2012 4:12 am
Delivery Date: 16 Mar 2012
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Re: Battery-electric bus discussion

Mon May 28, 2018 3:24 pm

BYD buses are not holding up well in LA:
LA Times wrote:In the nine years since, agencies have awarded BYD grants, subsidies and public contracts worth more than $330 million for its battery-powered buses, forklifts and trucks. The company is positioned to be a prime supplier of electric buses to the nation's second-largest system, as Los Angeles' Metro sets a 12-year deadline to abandon fossil fuels.

But largely unbeknownst to the public, BYD's electric buses are contending with a record of poor performance and mechanical problems.

A Times investigation found its buses stalled on hills, required service calls much more frequently than older buses and had unpredictable driving ranges below advertised distances, which were impaired by the heat, the cold or the way drivers braked.

A federal testing center and transit agencies across the country logged driving ranges that were dozens of miles short of company claims, limiting the routes they can handle and requiring passengers to shuffle onto replacement buses when the batteries go low.

The first five buses BYD sent to Los Angeles Metro were pulled off the road after less than five months of service. Internal emails and other agency records show that agency staff called them "unsuitable," poorly made and unreliable for more than 100 miles. Despite strong concerns from its own staff about the quality and reliability of the company's vehicles, the transit agency awarded BYD tens of millions of dollars more in public contracts.
This is not at all a surprise to me, particularly when we are talking about battery technology from a few years ago. Even today's technology suffers from several difficulties which could lead to long-term problems, but things are getting much better rapidly.

This type of news makes me think the approach in the US of a gradual transition to BEV buses makes much more sense than the wholesale changeover that occurred in Shenzen. A slower transition allow the technology to mature and also helps to week out the manufacturers who are not producing quality buses while the high-quality products are identified.

Expect to see more articles of this ilk going forward.
RegGuheert
2011 Leaf SL Demo vehicle
10K miles: Apr 14, 2013, 20K miles (55.7Ah): Aug 7, 2014, 30K miles (52.0Ah): Dec 30, 2015, 40K miles (49.8Ah): Feb 8, 2017, 50K miles (47.2Ah): Dec 7, 2017.
Enphase Inverter Measured MTBF: M190, M215, M250, S280

User avatar
RegGuheert
Posts: 6252
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2012 4:12 am
Delivery Date: 16 Mar 2012
Leaf Number: 5926
Location: Northern VA

Re: Battery-electric bus discussion

Mon May 28, 2018 3:54 pm

Washington, DC has deployed 14 Proterra Catalyst E2 BEVs:
InsideEVs wrote:The D.C. Circulator introduces in Washington a fleet of Proterra Catalyst E2 electric buses.

The fleet of 14 buses is now the largest on the East Coast and one of the largest in the U.S., with potential for more than 4,800,000 annual riders.
They're not the nicest-looking buses I have ever seen.
RegGuheert
2011 Leaf SL Demo vehicle
10K miles: Apr 14, 2013, 20K miles (55.7Ah): Aug 7, 2014, 30K miles (52.0Ah): Dec 30, 2015, 40K miles (49.8Ah): Feb 8, 2017, 50K miles (47.2Ah): Dec 7, 2017.
Enphase Inverter Measured MTBF: M190, M215, M250, S280

GRA
Posts: 8906
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Battery-electric bus discussion

Tue May 29, 2018 6:29 pm

RegGuheert wrote:Washington, DC has deployed 14 Proterra Catalyst E2 BEVs:
InsideEVs wrote:The D.C. Circulator introduces in Washington a fleet of Proterra Catalyst E2 electric buses.

The fleet of 14 buses is now the largest on the East Coast and one of the largest in the U.S., with potential for more than 4,800,000 annual riders.
They're not the nicest-looking buses I have ever seen.

Sort of a grasshopper vibe about the nose.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
Posts: 8906
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Battery-electric bus discussion

Thu Jun 14, 2018 4:42 pm

Via GCC:
Chicago Transit Authority orders 20 Proterra electric buses for $32M
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2018/06/20180614-cta.html

CTA has been testing two electric buses since 2014, when the agency became the first in the country to use all-electric-powered buses for regular scheduled service. Both electric buses have performed well and handled Chicago’s weather and temperatures. . . .

The two electric buses currently in operation have saved CTA more than $24,000 annually in fuel costs, and $30,000 annually in maintenance costs, when compared to diesel buses purchased in 2014. They also provide a quieter ride, producing noise the equivalent to a human conversation.

The new buses will include new passenger information screens to show real-time travel information and other service information.

CTA expects to begin receiving the first buses by the end of 2018, which will begin service along one of CTA’s busiest bus routes—the #66 Chicago route. The remaining buses are expected to arrive through 2020 and will be assigned to operate along the #66 and #124 Navy Pier.

The new bus contract also includes the installation of five electric quick-charging stations at Navy Pier, Chicago/Austin and the CTA’s Chicago Avenue garage. The units will allow charging within 5-10 minutes, allowing buses to return to service quickly. Buses can run between 75-120 miles on a single charge.

CTA will monitor the performance of the new buses, using the information to guide future modernization of its bus fleet. Since 2011, the CTA has purchased 450 new buses to replace its oldest models, and overhauled more than 1,000 buses to extend their useful life and improve performance. CTA’s bus fleet includes more than 1,800 buses. . . .

They really missed an opportunity here - instead of 20, the order should have been for "25 or 6 to 4" ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iUAYeN3Rp2E

Perhaps I'm showing my age - I can still remember when they were known by their full name. We could use a good jazz/rock fusion horn band now. I have some questions, the two most important of which are numbered - ah well, you know :lol:
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
Posts: 8906
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Battery-electric bus discussion

Fri Jun 15, 2018 3:27 pm

Via GCC:
Toronto Transit Commission greenlights first battery-electric bus fleet; 10 Proterra E2s to start
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2018/06/20180614-ttc.html

The Toronto Transit Commission, the third largest transit agency in North America and the most heavily used system in all of Canada, purchased ten Proterra Catalyst E2 buses in support of the transit agency’s goal to convert its entire fleet of 1,926 buses to zero-emission buses by 2040.

Canada has around 24,000 public transit buses in circulation, and around 2,000 buses turn over each year, making it a prime market for Proterra to serve as more regions including Toronto, Edmonton, Vancouver, and Montreal make zero-emission bus fleet commitments. This milestone also marks Proterra’s market entry into Canada.

The TTC is the most heavily-used urban mass transit system in all of Canada, and the third largest in North America, after the New York City Transit Authority and Mexico City Metro. TTC’s bus fleet serves nearly 2,750,000 residents with an average ridership of 253 million per year, and provides critical mass transit links throughout the broader metropolitan area. . . .

The battery-electric buses will go into service in 2019 and operate out of the Mount Dennis Bus garage, serving routes nearby.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

User avatar
RegGuheert
Posts: 6252
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2012 4:12 am
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Re: Battery-electric bus discussion

Sat Jun 16, 2018 3:47 am

RegGuheerton February 21, 2018 wrote:I found a very recent sales presentation by Proterra regarding their products and the transit bus market. There is a lot of interesting information in that presentation, some of which is news to me.
...
Image

I see a few interesting things in that chart:
- A new Proterra bus can be had for $750,000.00. (I'm not sure which one.)
- BEV bus prices are coming down rapidly.
- BEV buses can be purchased for the same price as a diesel-electric hybrid bus today. (Of course the hybrid can be driven much farther.)
- Proterra expects to achieve purchase price parity with CNG buses in 2022 and diesel buses in 2025.

Some other things I found interesting in the presentation:
- Proterra's BEV buses are lighter than the incumbent products.
- Proterra's BEV buses seat more passengers than the incumbent products.
- Proterra expects battery costs to drop by $14% each time volume doubles.
- Proterra has outstanding orders for about 400 buses.
It seems the prices for buses that make it onto Proterra PowerPoint presentations are much lower than those for buses that make it onto the streets:
GRA wrote:Via GCC:
Chicago Transit Authority orders 20 Proterra electric buses for $32M
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2018/06/20180614-cta.html
... The two electric buses currently in operation have saved CTA more than $24,000 annually in fuel costs, and $30,000 annually in maintenance costs, when compared to diesel buses purchased in 2014. They also provide a quieter ride, producing noise the equivalent to a human conversation....
I don't know what a BEV bus quick-charge station costs, but if they come in at $400,000 each, that puts these new buses for Chicago at exactly TWICE the price shown in the chart...and these are not the big-battery versions that Proterra offers:
GRA wrote:Via GCC:
Buses can run between 75-120 miles on a single charge.
OTOH, $55,000 of savings per year for each bus comes to $660,000 savings over a 12-year lifetime, so I guess Chicago can do well with these buses IF they hold up. Still, they are probably smart to bide their time and let these vehicles continue to improve while prices come down. Future procurements will certainly include larger quantity purchases each year.
RegGuheert
2011 Leaf SL Demo vehicle
10K miles: Apr 14, 2013, 20K miles (55.7Ah): Aug 7, 2014, 30K miles (52.0Ah): Dec 30, 2015, 40K miles (49.8Ah): Feb 8, 2017, 50K miles (47.2Ah): Dec 7, 2017.
Enphase Inverter Measured MTBF: M190, M215, M250, S280

GRA
Posts: 8906
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Battery-electric bus discussion

Sat Jun 16, 2018 3:29 pm

RegGuheert wrote:It seems the prices for buses that make it onto Proterra PowerPoint presentations are much lower than those for buses that make it onto the streets:
GRA wrote:Via GCC:
Chicago Transit Authority orders 20 Proterra electric buses for $32M
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2018/06/20180614-cta.html
... The two electric buses currently in operation have saved CTA more than $24,000 annually in fuel costs, and $30,000 annually in maintenance costs, when compared to diesel buses purchased in 2014. They also provide a quieter ride, producing noise the equivalent to a human conversation....
I don't know what a BEV bus quick-charge station costs, but if they come in at $400,000 each, that puts these new buses for Chicago at exactly TWICE the price shown in the chart...and these are not the big-battery versions that Proterra offers:
GRA wrote:Via GCC:
Buses can run between 75-120 miles on a single charge.
OTOH, $55,000 of savings per year for each bus comes to $660,000 savings over a 12-year lifetime, so I guess Chicago can do well with these buses IF they hold up. Still, they are probably smart to bide their time and let these vehicles continue to improve while prices come down. Future procurements will certainly include larger quantity purchases each year.

I long ago learned to take manufacturer's performance and price claims for new tech with a huge pile of salt, which is why I'm so adamant about having real-world comparative operational tests in different use cases, over enough time to demonstrate an actual as opposed to projected TCO savings.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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