GRA
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Re: Battery-electric bus discussion

Sun Oct 18, 2015 4:03 pm

RegGuheert wrote:DanCar linked this article in another thread: ABB announced their new quick-charge stations at Busworld 2015:
ABB wrote:ABB, the leading power and automation technology group, announced today that it introduces an automated fast charging system which allows electric city buses to drive 24/7, thus enabling true zero emission bus transport in cities. With its automated rooftop connection and a typical charge time of 4–6 minutes, the system can easily be integrated in existing bus lines by installing fast chargers at end points, terminals, depots and/or intermediate stops. The modular design offering 150 kW, 300 kW or 450 kW of charging power provides any city bus with enough energy in only a few minutes to run its inner-city route continuously throughout the day.

Personally, I'm not convinced that quick-charging will win out over high-capacity batteries for BEV city buses. Even though the quick-charge approach should make the buses lighter, a much larger percentage of the charging will occur during the daytime when peak electrical demand occurs. Long-range BEV buses have the benefit of being charged overnight when there is less electrical load. Of course initially both types will find service until operators can decide which approach suits their municipality best.

In the future there may be a large amount of PV power on the grid, which may make daytime (quick) charging more attractive at that time.

I'm with you, and I'd add operational reliability issues - if one enroute site is down, you need to have enough battery storage to bypass it and get to the next, which decreases the whole cost advantage of the smaller battery. Of course, if the power at the bus barn goes down, every bus is screwed, but that should be a lot less common as you can have onsite genset (fuel cell?) backup. This point also favors FCEV buses rather than BEVs in areas with frequent outages, but that decision will ultimately come down to overall cost, once BEV buses have the necessary range to serve all the required routes. To minimize disaster-related curtailment it's useful to have at least two full days of operating range autonomy onboard regardless of the source, but that raises cost, space/weight issues.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

TLeaf
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Re: Battery-electric bus discussion

Mon Oct 19, 2015 5:01 pm

Our local transit agency (King County - Metro Transit) is going to be trying out a few of the fast-charge Proterras with the first one set to arrive before the end of this year. Benefits of the quick-charge buses as I see them include:
a) Less weight - Heavy buses tear up the pavement not only on public streets, but also at the bus maintenance facilities. There's also implications for the maintenance shop needing to have the appropriate hoists for dealing with the heavier buses & batteries. Oh, and now that I think of it, safety might also be affected as weight relates to stopping distances, impact damage, etc.
b) Cheaper infrastructure - I'm guessing that it's easier to put in a couple dozen fast charge stations out and about (probably fed by different substations, if you want to talk about resiliency) than it is to put in a few hundred overnight charging stations at a maintenance base (a typical base around here has 200-300 buses). Come to think of it, this is probably a pretty big factor.
On the downside, there's the possibility of shorter battery life expectancy and the problem of a downed/damaged quick-charge station really messing up a bus route. This is where I really like the battery/electric trolleys which run on overhead wire most of the time but can go off-wire for some miles.

Admittedly, here in the northwest we don't have time-of-day based electrical rates, so the math might work out different in other areas...

GRA
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Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
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Re: Battery-electric bus discussion

Mon Oct 19, 2015 5:11 pm

TLeaf wrote:Our local transit agency (King County - Metro Transit) is going to be trying out a few of the fast-charge Proterras with the first one set to arrive before the end of this year. Benefits of the quick-charge buses as I see them include:
a) Less weight - Heavy buses tear up the pavement not only on public streets, but also at the bus maintenance facilities. There's also implications for the maintenance shop needing to have the appropriate hoists for dealing with the heavier buses & batteries. Oh, and now that I think of it, safety might also be affected as weight relates to stopping distances, impact damage, etc.
b) Cheaper infrastructure - I'm guessing that it's easier to put in a couple dozen fast charge stations out and about (probably fed by different substations, if you want to talk about resiliency) than it is to put in a few hundred overnight charging stations at a maintenance base (a typical base around here has 200-300 buses). Come to think of it, this is probably a pretty big factor.
On the downside, there's the possibility of shorter battery life expectancy and the problem of a downed/damaged quick-charge station really messing up a bus route. This is where I really like the battery/electric trolleys which run on overhead wire most of the time but can go off-wire for some miles.

Admittedly, here in the northwest we don't have time-of-day based electrical rates, so the math might work out different in other areas...

There's a lot of factors that will go into the decision, and as with AE, the best AFV for a particular job tends to be situation-specific rather than a general option, at least until the tech is more mature.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
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Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
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Re: Battery-electric bus discussion

Wed Nov 04, 2015 6:26 pm

Via ievs:
ABB Introduces Automated Fast Charger For Electric Buses
http://insideevs.com/abb-introduces-aut ... ric-buses/

The new automated fast charging system uses a rooftop connection and can send up to 450 kW of DC power to the vehicle (150 kW and 300 kW versions also available). . . .

“ABB’s automated fast-charging solution is based on the ‘pantograph’ – a proven mechanical concept for linking power supplies to trains, trams and buses. When a bus arrives at the charging stop, wireless communication will be established between bus and charger and a special inverted pantograph will come down automatically. When all safety checks are performed, the system will provide the bus with a powerful fast recharge.” . . . .
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
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Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
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Re: Battery-electric bus discussion

Fri Nov 06, 2015 5:33 pm

Via ABG (pinch of salt not provided):
Brighsun launches electric bus in Australia, goes on 600-mile drive [w/video]
http://www.autoblog.com/2015/11/06/brig ... -600-mile/

Australia-based Brighsun is starting to promote its line of electric-bus prototypes, and says one of them can go from Sydney to Melbourne on a single charge, according to Australia's One Step Off The Grid. That's about 1,000 kilometers (621 miles), or about the same distance from the Motor City to the Big Apple. . . .
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
Posts: 10292
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Battery-electric bus discussion

Sun Nov 08, 2015 4:30 pm

Via ievs:
Volvo 7900 Electric Joins 7900 Plug-In Hybrid Bus
http://insideevs.com/volvo-7900-electri ... ybrid-bus/

This is another short range (10-20km), QC at the end of each run type.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
Posts: 10292
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
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Re: Battery-electric bus discussion

Tue Nov 10, 2015 8:13 pm

Via ievs:
CARB Assessment Shows BEVs Are Starting To Penetrate Medium And Heavy-Duty Truck/Bus Markets
http://insideevs.com/carb-assessment-sh ... s-markets/

The report is here:
DRAFT
TECHNOLOGY ASSESSMENT:
MEDIUM- AND HEAVY- DUTY BATTERY ELECTRIC
TRUCKS AND BUSES
http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/tech/techr ... report.pdf
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
Posts: 10292
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Battery-electric bus discussion

Mon Nov 23, 2015 6:41 pm

Via ABG (X-posted in the autonomous driving LEAF thread):
NAVYA will run autonomous ARMA electric buses on public roads
http://www.autoblog.com/2015/11/23/navy ... lic-roads/

Starting next spring, in Sion, Switzerland.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
Posts: 10292
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
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Re: Battery-electric bus discussion

Sat Feb 13, 2016 2:31 pm

Via GCC:
Antelope Valley Transit orders up to 85 electric buses from BYD; first US all-electric public transit fleet
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2016/02 ... elope.html

. . . Under the order from AVTA, BYD Motors will build and deliver a variety of all-electric bus models including a 40-foot low floor transit bus, a 60-foot low floor articulated bus, and a 45-foot commuter coach.

All 85 buses will have a range of more than 160 miles on a single battery charge. AVTA is also installing a wireless charging system to extend the fleet’s range to ensure the electric buses will be able to serve the agency’s longest rural routes.

. . . Over the lifetime of the new electric bus fleet, the transit agency forecasts it could save more than $46 million compared to an all-diesel bus fleet, equivalent to $46,000 per bus per year in savings. . . .


Same source:
NREL analysis of Proterra electric bus demo finds average fuel economy nearly 4x that of CNG baseline buses
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2016/02 ... terra.html
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
Posts: 10292
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Battery-electric bus discussion

Wed Feb 24, 2016 7:05 pm

Via ievs: http://insideevs.com/chicago-transit-au ... ric-buses/

. . . In 2014, CTA added two New Flyer Xcelsior XE40 all-electric buses and it seems that they are willing to expand their electric fleet again. . . . According to the reports from Chicago, CTA got permission to switch an $8.1 million federal grant for 26 hybrid, articulated buses (60-foot) to 27 standard-sized electric buses (40-foot). . . .

“The CTA will use any new electric buses to “further inform in-service tests of the electric bus technology” and to help the agency decide the right mix of buses when it makes its next major procurement, a purchase of more than 1,000 buses in 2020, the CTA wrote in comments to the Chicago Metropolitan Agency for Planning. . . .
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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