GRA
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Re: Battery-electric bus discussion

Sun Jan 28, 2018 4:46 pm

Both via IEVS:
BYD Begins Deliveries of 18 Meter Articulated Electric Buses
https://insideevs.com/byd-begins-deliveries-of-18-meter-articulated-electric-buses/

BYD delivered its first 18-meter articulated electric buses in Europe for Nobina in Oslo, Norway.
The first two vehicles are running on route 31 and 31E, Norway’s heaviest duty routes – carrying approximately 15 million customers a year and approximately 50,000 daily travelers.

The BYD buses are equipped with large battery packs for all-day service, and overnight charging at the depot. While at the same time, other manufacturers seem to prefer opportunity charging via pantographs and street facilities.

The Chinese manufacturer didn’t release bus specs, but several runs through the day must mean a few hundred kilometers of range (at least 200-300 km).

    “The articulated ebuses running on Line 31 and Line 31E operate between Grorud and Tonsenhagen, a distance of 17 to 24 km. . . .”


Proterra Electric Bus Trial Underway In Alaska
https://insideevs.com/proterra-electric-bus-trial-underway-in-alaska/

The Municipality of Anchorage’s (MOA) Public Transportation Department (PTD) announced that it’s trialing the new 40-foot Proterra Catalyst E2 electric bus for the next four months. Cold weather affects EVs because electric heating consumes a lot of energy, decreasing range, while in most cases batteries struggles to charge quickly at low temperatures.

The bus operates everyday on routes 10, 25, and 35. PTD encourages users to share experiences riding the battery-powered bus on social media using #ElectricRideANC.

    “The MOA and Proterra will debut the new bus at a kickoff event and Anchorage Assembly tour starting at 10:30 a.m. on Thursday, Jan. 11, 2018 at the PTD Administration Building, 3600 Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. Ave., Anchorage. The bus will begin serving routes for the general public starting Tuesday, Jan. 16, 2018 for a four month trial period. . . .

The four month trial period will test how the bus performs in winter weather, how cold temperatures affect the battery life and whether it’s feasible to pursue an electric bus fleet in the future. PTD partnered with MOA’s Solid Waste Services (SWS) to lease the bus. SWS will also be monitoring its performance to help establish the feasibility of electric garbage trucks. . . .
Last edited by GRA on Sun Jan 28, 2018 5:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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RegGuheert
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Re: Battery-electric bus discussion

Sun Jan 28, 2018 5:05 pm

Frankly, with Oslo at 60 degrees north latitude and Anchorage at 61 degrees, I will not be too surprised if BOTH of these BEV bus deployments go poorly. Hopefully Proterra is putting their 660-kWh buses up there and targeting shorter routes. Even then, I would still worry about plating of elemental LI during charging at very cold temperatures.

But who knows? Perhaps traditional buses have a bunch of issues up there also.
RegGuheert
2011 Leaf SL Demo vehicle
10K miles: Apr 14, 2013, 20K miles (55.7Ah): Aug 7, 2014, 30K miles (52.0Ah): Dec 30, 2015, 40K miles (49.8Ah): Feb 8, 2017, 50K miles (47.2Ah): Dec 7, 2017.
Enphase Inverter Measured MTBF: M190, M215, M250, S280

GRA
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Re: Battery-electric bus discussion

Sun Jan 28, 2018 5:29 pm

RegGuheert wrote:Frankly, with Oslo at 60 degrees north latitude and Anchorage at 61 degrees, I will not be too surprised if BOTH of these BEV bus deployments go poorly. Hopefully Proterra is putting their 660-kWh buses up there and targeting shorter routes. Even then, I would still worry about plating of elemental LI during charging at very cold temperatures.

But who knows? Perhaps traditional buses have a bunch of issues up there also.

The Catalyst E2s are available with packs ranging from 440-660kWh, but I don't know which ones are being used there. Checking the Wikis, Anchorage (Koppen Dfc = subarctic)) gets colder than Oslo (Koppen Dfb = humid continental), record low (1947) was -38 deg. F, while Oslo only reached -21.3 deg. F (1841), so it should be a more severe test. Oslo also has average high temps in summer that are warmer, 72.1 deg. F in July, versus 66 deg. F for Anchorage. Record high in Oslo was 95 deg. F in 1901, while Anchorage hit 87 in 2013.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

smkettner
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Re: Battery-electric bus discussion

Sun Jan 28, 2018 6:56 pm

RegGuheert wrote:Frankly, with Oslo at 60 degrees north latitude and Anchorage at 61 degrees, I will not be too surprised if BOTH of these BEV bus deployments go poorly. Hopefully Proterra is putting their 660-kWh buses up there and targeting shorter routes. Even then, I would still worry about plating of elemental LI during charging at very cold temperatures.

But who knows? Perhaps traditional buses have a bunch of issues up there also.
In near continuous service why would the batteries get cold?
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2 bar lost at 35,339 miles, 25 months.
LEAF traded at 45,400 miles for a RAV4-EV

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RegGuheert
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Re: Battery-electric bus discussion

Mon Jan 29, 2018 1:35 am

smkettner wrote:[In near continuous service why would the batteries get cold?
That thought had occurred to me before I posted, but at the end of the day I have to say that "stuff happens". There might be periods of inactivity due to breakdown, severe weather, earthquake or some such.

OTOH, it seems unlikely that the engineers wouldn't design the pack to keep itself above some minimum temperature. Hopefully all will go well up there!
RegGuheert
2011 Leaf SL Demo vehicle
10K miles: Apr 14, 2013, 20K miles (55.7Ah): Aug 7, 2014, 30K miles (52.0Ah): Dec 30, 2015, 40K miles (49.8Ah): Feb 8, 2017, 50K miles (47.2Ah): Dec 7, 2017.
Enphase Inverter Measured MTBF: M190, M215, M250, S280

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RegGuheert
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Re: Battery-electric bus discussion

Mon Jan 29, 2018 9:35 am

I want to comment on the following comment in this GreenCarCongress article about Proterra's latest 1101-mile record (which Ed has posted about earlier in this thread):
GreenCarCongress wrote:Proterra has set similar records before, covering 603 miles last September in a bus equipped with a 440-kwh battery and 258 miles in 2015 using a battery of 257 kwh.
What I want to point out is that adding battery capacity to these buses adds proportionally more range to these demonstrations:

440 kWh/257 kWh = 1.71X the battery capacity while 603 miles/258 miles = 2.33X the range

660 kWh/440 kWh = 1.5X the battery capacity while 1101 miles/603 miles = 1.83X the range

660 kWh/257 kWh = 2.57X the battery capacity while 1101 miles/258 miles = 4.27X the range

First I will note that part of the above difference is due to a reduction in speed from 30 MPH in the first run to 15 MPH in the last run. But that speed change doesn't account for all of the difference in these ratios. There are losses and electrical loads which are in place which use power from the battery regardless of the driving speed.

In hot or cold temperatures, these fixed electrical loads are dominated by the climate-control system. In fact, those may be the dominant loads in the bus on some routes. Think of a bus sitting at a depot between runs. In those cases, adding battery capacity adds significantly more range because much more capacity is left over for driving after the requirements of the climate control are met.

What's amazing to me is that this massive increase in usable range of these Proterra BEV buses was realized in just two years (September 2015 to September 2017)!

Going forward, we should expect the prices to come down and reliability and durability to improve. Cities around the world should start getting quieter and much less polluted as we move forward.
RegGuheert
2011 Leaf SL Demo vehicle
10K miles: Apr 14, 2013, 20K miles (55.7Ah): Aug 7, 2014, 30K miles (52.0Ah): Dec 30, 2015, 40K miles (49.8Ah): Feb 8, 2017, 50K miles (47.2Ah): Dec 7, 2017.
Enphase Inverter Measured MTBF: M190, M215, M250, S280

GRA
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Re: Battery-electric bus discussion

Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:59 pm

Via GCC:
Efficient Drivetrains delivers its largest electric bus order for Golden Dragon In China
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2018/02/20180202-edi.html

Efficient Drivetrains, Inc. (EDI) has fulfilled its largest order of all-electric buses for Golden Dragon in China. As part of the program, the EDI PowerDrive 6000EV system was integrated into a fleet of eighteen Golden Dragon 10.5-meter buses.

The EDI PowerDrive 6000 has surpassed more than 3.8 million miles in a commercial fleet setting of city buses deployed in rural and city routes in China. The same drivetrain system received government certification after undergoing durability testing in late 2015. . . .

The company has established a visible presence to its commitment to electrification of its vehicles, with more than 15,000 new energy buses deployed globally. In China alone, Golden Dragon has deployed new energy vehicles in more than 40 cities, including Beijing, Shanghai, Hangzhou, Guangzhou, Xiamen, and Fuzhou.

The new all electric 10.5 meter buses featuring the EDI PowerDrive will run in city and rural routes across multiple terrains and climates for the city of Nantong, China. . . .
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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RegGuheert
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Re: Battery-electric bus discussion

Thu Feb 15, 2018 2:16 pm

UQM Technologies receives new order from Proterra for 2018; increased market demand for electric buses:
Green Car Congress wrote:UQM Technologies Inc. has received a new order from Proterra for UQM’s PowerPhase HD electric drive systems, to be manufactured and shipped in 2018. Proterra continues to build upon its electric bus technology, utilizing the UQM electric powertrain system for orders in 2018.

Proterra was recently awarded the Los Angeles DOT order for 25 buses, a significant commitment by LA and part of a bigger plan to deploy an all-electric fleet by 2030.

For reference: UQM Technologies bus propulsion page (I'm kinda wondering how they get that oval motor to spin! ;) )
RegGuheert
2011 Leaf SL Demo vehicle
10K miles: Apr 14, 2013, 20K miles (55.7Ah): Aug 7, 2014, 30K miles (52.0Ah): Dec 30, 2015, 40K miles (49.8Ah): Feb 8, 2017, 50K miles (47.2Ah): Dec 7, 2017.
Enphase Inverter Measured MTBF: M190, M215, M250, S280

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RegGuheert
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Re: Battery-electric bus discussion

Wed Feb 21, 2018 5:39 am

I found a very recent sales presentation by Proterra regarding their products and the transit bus market. There is a lot of interesting information in that presentation, some of which is news to me.

Let's start with TCO. Proterra claims to have about a $150,000 TCO benefit over diesel buses and a $130,000 TCO benefit over CNG buses over a 12-year period. Of course there are assumptions in there for the route (battery size) as well as fuel and maintenance costs. Here's their chart (and I will assume the numbers are in K$, not $ as shown, except for the TCO/mile numbers):

Image

What you see with vehicles like buses which are driven a lot, it is much more likely that higher purchase prices can be more-readily recovered through reduced fuel and maintenance costs.

What's interesting here is that Proterra will sell their buses without the battery for about the same cost as a diesel bus and lease the battery. This has two major benefits for transit authorities: 1) It fits their existing spending model and 2) It eliminates risk associated with owning the batteries.

Another interesting chart shows historical and projected bus purchase prices by fuel type:

Image

I see a few interesting things in that chart:
- A new Proterra bus can be had for $750,000.00. (I'm not sure which one.)
- BEV bus prices are coming down rapidly.
- BEV buses can be purchased for the same price as a diesel-electric hybrid bus today. (Of course the hybrid can be driven much farther.)
- Proterra expects to achieve purchase price parity with CNG buses in 2022 and diesel buses in 2025.

Some other things I found interesting in the presentation:
- Proterra's BEV buses are lighter than the incumbent products.
- Proterra's BEV buses seat more passengers than the incumbent products.
- Proterra expects battery costs to drop by $14% each time volume doubles.
- Proterra has outstanding orders for about 400 buses.

Given the battery options which are already available today and the rapidly dropping cost for Li-ion batteries, it seems the days are numbered for diesel-powered buses. Fuel costs may allow CNG buses to survive for a bit longer, especially in the U.S.

Transit authorities in areas with expensive electricity would be wise to install PV panels over depots and terminus buildings in order to lock in lower electricity costs. This allows them to decouple their cost structure from external entities and thereby better manage their resources. No other fuel option provides this opportunity.
RegGuheert
2011 Leaf SL Demo vehicle
10K miles: Apr 14, 2013, 20K miles (55.7Ah): Aug 7, 2014, 30K miles (52.0Ah): Dec 30, 2015, 40K miles (49.8Ah): Feb 8, 2017, 50K miles (47.2Ah): Dec 7, 2017.
Enphase Inverter Measured MTBF: M190, M215, M250, S280

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RegGuheert
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Re: Battery-electric bus discussion

Wed Feb 28, 2018 7:09 pm

RegGuheert
2011 Leaf SL Demo vehicle
10K miles: Apr 14, 2013, 20K miles (55.7Ah): Aug 7, 2014, 30K miles (52.0Ah): Dec 30, 2015, 40K miles (49.8Ah): Feb 8, 2017, 50K miles (47.2Ah): Dec 7, 2017.
Enphase Inverter Measured MTBF: M190, M215, M250, S280

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