GRA
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Re: Battery-electric bus discussion

Sat Mar 05, 2016 2:55 pm

Via ievs:
University of Montana Goes With Proterra Electric Buses
http://insideevs.com/university-of-mont ... ric-buses/

Proterra received an order for two electric buses for the Associated Students of the University of Montana (ASUM) Transportation and announced that it intends to supply EV buses to campus locations nationwide in the future.

The first project for the University of Montana consists of two 40-foot Catalyst Fast Charge buses and one semi-autonomous fast charger.

Delivery is scheduled for September 2016. . . .
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

RonDawg
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Leaf Number: 027089
Location: SoCal

Re: Battery-electric bus discussion

Sat Mar 05, 2016 5:05 pm

For this particular application, I wonder why we can't improve on a solution already employed in many cities, and that is add a small battery to an electric trolley bus (basically, a city bus with a trolley pole or pantograph)? Since buses tend to run on a fixed route, the overhead wires would provide the primary power, but if for some reason it needs to deviate (such as a blocked street) the driver can retract the trolley pole/pantograph and drive on batteries for a short distance until it can resume the fixed route again. Or a route can be devised that will allow the bus to use the overhead wires for most of its journey, but will use batteries for the part of it where there are no overhead wires; many bus routes in urban areas run along concurrent paths for part of their routes. The battery will be continuously charged by the overhead wires, so no need for a quick charge solution.

For other areas I wonder if a hybrid-electric solution would be more practical than trying to make a full on EV bus.
Blue Ocean 2012 Leaf SV, lost that 1st bar at 34 months/26,435 miles. Lease returned 2 months later. Final LeafStat figures: 225 Gids, 17.44 kWH, SOC 91.89%, SOH 82.36%, 69.49% HX, 54.57 Ahr, battery temp 61.8 F.
Now driving a 2015 VW eGolf SEL.

GetOffYourGas
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Location: Syracuse, NY

Re: Battery-electric bus discussion

Mon Mar 07, 2016 8:14 am

RonDawg wrote:For this particular application, I wonder why we can't improve on a solution already employed in many cities, and that is add a small battery to an electric trolley bus (basically, a city bus with a trolley pole or pantograph)? Since buses tend to run on a fixed route, the overhead wires would provide the primary power, but if for some reason it needs to deviate (such as a blocked street) the driver can retract the trolley pole/pantograph and drive on batteries for a short distance until it can resume the fixed route again. Or a route can be devised that will allow the bus to use the overhead wires for most of its journey, but will use batteries for the part of it where there are no overhead wires; many bus routes in urban areas run along concurrent paths for part of their routes. The battery will be continuously charged by the overhead wires, so no need for a quick charge solution.

For other areas I wonder if a hybrid-electric solution would be more practical than trying to make a full on EV bus.


Such a solution would work - and in fact makes a lot of sense - for dense areas like SoCal. Around here, the busses travel all over the county, and things are much more spread out. I couldn't imagine the cost of running literally hundreds of miles of overhead lines being less than a QC at a few dozen stops.
~Brian

EV Fleet:
2011 Torqeedo Travel 1003 electric outboard on a 22' sailboat
2012 Leaf SV (traded for Bolt)
2015 C-Max Energi (302A package)
2017 Bolt Premier

RonDawg
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Re: Battery-electric bus discussion

Mon Mar 07, 2016 10:02 am

GetOffYourGas wrote:
RonDawg wrote:For this particular application, I wonder why we can't improve on a solution already employed in many cities, and that is add a small battery to an electric trolley bus (basically, a city bus with a trolley pole or pantograph)? Since buses tend to run on a fixed route, the overhead wires would provide the primary power, but if for some reason it needs to deviate (such as a blocked street) the driver can retract the trolley pole/pantograph and drive on batteries for a short distance until it can resume the fixed route again. Or a route can be devised that will allow the bus to use the overhead wires for most of its journey, but will use batteries for the part of it where there are no overhead wires; many bus routes in urban areas run along concurrent paths for part of their routes. The battery will be continuously charged by the overhead wires, so no need for a quick charge solution.

For other areas I wonder if a hybrid-electric solution would be more practical than trying to make a full on EV bus.


Such a solution would work - and in fact makes a lot of sense - for dense areas like SoCal. Around here, the busses travel all over the county, and things are much more spread out. I couldn't imagine the cost of running literally hundreds of miles of overhead lines being less than a QC at a few dozen stops.


That's why I mentioned that for some areas, a hybrid-electric may be a more practical solution, just like a Volt is a more practical solution than a Leaf for some people.
Blue Ocean 2012 Leaf SV, lost that 1st bar at 34 months/26,435 miles. Lease returned 2 months later. Final LeafStat figures: 225 Gids, 17.44 kWH, SOC 91.89%, SOH 82.36%, 69.49% HX, 54.57 Ahr, battery temp 61.8 F.
Now driving a 2015 VW eGolf SEL.

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paulgipe
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Re: Battery-electric bus discussion

Wed Mar 09, 2016 5:00 pm

I recently posted my impression of a test ride at Proterra Demos Bus for Bakersfield’s GET Transit under Electric Vehicles on my web site.

Paul Gipe
Bakersfield, California
2017 Bolt LT with DCFC, leased 11/09/17
2015 Nissan S with QC, leased, returned
2013 Chevy Volt Premium, used 10/3/16, sold
L2; ClipperCreek HCS-40; Jesla; JDapter Stub
http://www.wind-works.org

GRA
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Re: Battery-electric bus discussion

Sat Mar 12, 2016 5:20 pm

Re PHEV buses, via ievs:
Volvo To Deliver 11 Plug-in Hybrid Buses To Namur, Belgium With ABB Chargers
http://insideevs.com/volvo-to-deliver-1 ... -chargers/

The deal includes two en route quick chargers.
. . . The Volvo 7900 Electric Hybrid can drive up to seven km (4.3 miles) on electricity alone, which positions it in the lowest range plug-ins rank, but if you can replenish energy on the bus stops every few minutes long range is not such a necessity as most of the mileage will still be electric.

To me the most interesting part is this:
[Bus operator] TEC buys the bus system as a turn-key solution. This means that Volvo takes full responsibility for vehicle servicing, battery maintenance as well as maintenance of the standard-based charging stations for a fixed monthly cost. . . .

Absent battery guarantees, this strikes me as the best way for an agency to eliminate uncertainty over long-term costs and durability at an early stage, assuming that there are minimum performance requirements in the contract.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
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Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
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Re: Battery-electric bus discussion

Sat Mar 12, 2016 5:24 pm

paulgipe wrote:I recently posted my impression of a test ride at Proterra Demos Bus for Bakersfield’s GET Transit under Electric Vehicles on my web site.

Paul Gipe

Paul, did you happen to find out if Proterra is guaranteeing battery capacity for a fixed period of time, or is that '6-8 years' just a claim backed by nothing at all?
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
Posts: 10338
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Battery-electric bus discussion

Tue Mar 15, 2016 5:04 pm

Via GCC:
Group of European electric bus manufacturers agrees on an open interface for charging
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2016/03 ... rging.html

European bus manufacturers Irizar, Solaris, VDL and Volvo have agreed to ensure the interoperability of electric buses with charging infrastructure provided by ABB, Heliox and Siemens. The objective is to ensure an open interface between electric buses and charging infrastructure and to facilitate the introduction of electric bus systems in European cities. . . .

For opportunity charging, the system includes automatic contact by a pantograph, wireless communication, contacting plates and infrastructure equipment that automatically connect vehicles with a pantograph. For overnight charging, the fast charging standard for cars (CCS) will be used as a base for the plug and for the communication. . . .

Via ievs:
City of St. Albert To Become First In Canada To Order Long-Range All-Electric Buses
http://insideevs.com/city-of-st-albert- ... ric-buses/

The city of St. Albert in Alberta, Canada announced the order of three long-range (up to 250 km or 155 miles) electric buses (35ft / 10.6 m long). With the order, St. Albert becomes the first municipality in Canada with such fleet.

Vehicles will be supplied by BYD with a 12 year battery warranty (the only such guarantee in the industry according to BYD). . . .
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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paulgipe
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Re: Battery-electric bus discussion

Sat Mar 19, 2016 12:02 pm

GRA wrote:
paulgipe wrote:I recently posted my impression of a test ride at Proterra Demos Bus for Bakersfield’s GET Transit under Electric Vehicles on my web site.

Paul Gipe

Paul, did you happen to find out if Proterra is guaranteeing battery capacity for a fixed period of time, or is that '6-8 years' just a claim backed by nothing at all?


GRA,

I was just a guy on the bus relaying corporate PR. I don't know how serious GET is about the buses. They would be heavily subsidized by the air district. More than that, I don't know.

In terms of bus deals, the Antelope Valley bus system has just ordered a bunch of BYD buses. I don't know if they will be built in China or not.

Paul
Bakersfield, California
2017 Bolt LT with DCFC, leased 11/09/17
2015 Nissan S with QC, leased, returned
2013 Chevy Volt Premium, used 10/3/16, sold
L2; ClipperCreek HCS-40; Jesla; JDapter Stub
http://www.wind-works.org

GRA
Posts: 10338
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Battery-electric bus discussion

Sat Mar 19, 2016 12:58 pm

paulgipe wrote:
GRA wrote:Paul, did you happen to find out if Proterra is guaranteeing battery capacity for a fixed period of time, or is that '6-8 years' just a claim backed by nothing at all?

GRA,

I was just a guy on the bus relaying corporate PR. I don't know how serious GET is about the buses. They would be heavily subsidized by the air district. More than that, I don't know.

In terms of bus deals, the Antelope Valley bus system has just ordered a bunch of BYD buses. I don't know if they will be built in China or not.

Paul

Okay, thanks. I figured that was probably the case, but thought I'd ask in case you left out any info from your post for length or other reasons. I hope we'll start to see more bus and taxi operators insist on battery warranties such as the one that BYD is offering, because lacking long-term data or a warranty, any claims of LCO savings and long-term suitability are speculative. It really bugs me when some company makes such claims after a few months of a year of testing, when the systems will need to last many times that for any such savings to eventuate. All toooften that leads to very public failure, bad press and long-term damage to the tech's reputation.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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