GRA
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Re: Official Honda Clarity FCEV/BEV/PHEV thread

Thu Mar 02, 2017 2:53 pm

GetOffYourGas wrote:
JasonA wrote:He said...

it or Olancha was one of the locations I recommended to the CAFCP) and someplace like Lee Vining, with Bishop or Mammoth as options,
When I hear and see that along with his past posts... yes, in my mind he is one..


Ok, I can see where you're coming from I guess. When I read that, though, I assumed that the CAFCP was already planning on spending money on a fueling station. Maybe they even asked for inputs on desirable locations. So if all Guy did is to respond to a request, that's still not really lobbying for them.

He basically has three options:
1) Recommend a location which makes sense to him (seems a logical, rational thing to do, even if simply open-minded about the possibility of FCVs working)
2) Ignore the request. This is what I'd expect most people to do who don't care about FCVs.
3) Make a bad recommendation in order to try to sabotage FCVs. Clearly neither of us would expect him to do that.

OK, way OT, but just to be be clear as to what I mean by 'lobbied', I went to the H2 open house in S.F. on 10/08 to look at/drive whichever FCEVs and PEVs the manufacturers chose to demo/display. As the 'driving' involved nothing more than a slow-speed loop around the parking lot, I didn't bother much with that, and spent far more time riding the electric bikes that were present. I did take a lap in the Soul EV along with the F-Cell, as they were the only cars of the ones available to drive that I had much interest in (the Volt 2 was there, but only to examine rather than drive). There were also various portable charging companies showing off their wares, so I talked to them as well, and collected handouts from whoever was giving them (just like any trade show).

I was hoping that a Tucson FCEV would be present, as I'm most interested in small AWD CUVs, but only several Mirais and Claritys plus a Mercedes F-Cell (same body as B-Class BEV) were. I talked to some of the people demoing all those and examined the Clarity (I'd previously talked to a Mirai owner and had a look at his car). The guy demoing the F-Cell happened to mention that he worked for CAFCP, and I told him some of the places I thought they needed to expand the infrastructure to allow touring. He gave me his card and suggested I email him with a list, so I did (as follows):
[Name redacted], I met and talked with you Saturday at Pier 27, and I mentioned that the lack of en-route H2 fueling infrastructure between the Bay Area (I'm in [city redacted]) and various national parks and other outdoor recreation areas prevented me from opting for an FCEV at this time. As you gave me your card, I wanted to expand on where I think they are needed, beyond the local expansion areas indicated in the successive CARB Annual Reports and grant applications (PON 13-607 et seq.), in hopes that you can pass this along to the appropriate person(s) and get them considered for a future round of grants.

West Sacramento and Truckee take care of North Lake Tahoe and Reno, but although it's possible to make an un-refueled round trip from W. Sacramento to South Lake Tahoe and back via U.S. 50, any local driving in the area of the Lake may require a detour to Truckee before returning - see http://www.edmunds.com/toyota/mirai/201 ... tahoe.html and especially http://www.edmunds.com/toyota/mirai/201 ... ntest.html for an example. First Element's CEO said awhile back that Truckee would be a sacrifice station for them for years owing to lack of usage, and a station in South Lake Tahoe may be similar but remains essential, especially to handle winter ski trips.

I frequently travel from the Bay Area to Yosemite, especially the Tuolumne Meadows area via State Route 120, and often over to Lee Vining and up or down the east side on 395. Unfortunately, while it might just be possible to do the B.A.- Yosemite Valley round-trip in a Mirai or Clarity (a Tucson or F-Cell doesn't have the range) from here given great care, it would be impossible to reach Tuolumne Meadows or the east side (U.S. 395, owing to both the range and the elevation gain required (186 miles/8,600' from my place in [city redacted] to Tuolumne Meadows; 206 miles/9,900+ feet gain followed by 3,160' drop to Lee Vining, etc.) barring a station in Lee Vining. See below.

At least one H2 station located well east of the Bay Area on State Route 120 is needed to reach the Tuolumne Meadows and Lee Vining areas and return, if un-refueled. One in Manteca at the junction of S.R.'s 99 and 120 is a bit too far west to easily do the round trip to T. Meadows (134 miles/8,600' 1-way) or Lee Vining. Oakdale, 20 miles further east, is better, but to make the trip easy you want the station in Jamestown, or else Big Oak Flat, Buck Meadows or Yosemite Lakes Resort (Hardin Flat).

Jamestown adds about a nine mile round-trip detour off the direct route to Yosemite, but a station there can also serve S.R.'s 108 and 4, which both have downhill ski resorts located along them (Dodge Ridge and Bear Valley, respectively) in addition to seeing summer visitors.

However, a station on S.R. 120 east of Yosemite Junction at Big Oak Flat et al, will serve Yosemite traffic better, and may reduce the need for a station in Lee Vining as well at an early stage. I assume that the National Park Service has no desire to upgrade the gas station at Crane Flat inside the park (which would otherwise be the ideal location) to provide H2, as they've been removing gas stations from the park wherever possible.

Another station is needed at Fresno to provide access to Yosemite from the south, as well as access to Sequoia/Kings Canyon from the North and the Shaver/Huntington/Edison Lakes areas from either direction. As Fresno is the fifth largest city in the state and marked for future expansion already, this shouldn't require it to be a sacrifice station. Another station is required in the Visalia/Tulare area to handle traffic to Sequoia/Kings Canyon from the south.

Over on 395, at least two seed stations are needed, probably at Lee Vining and Lone Pine, 125 miles apart. This allows round-trip coverage of the entire length of 395 south of Lake Tahoe, and also provides access to Yosemite and Sequoia/Kings Canyon from the east, the Ancient Bristlecone Pine Forest from the west, plus Mammoth Lakes and other mountain resort towns/trailheads west of 395, as well as somewhat inconvenient access (for people coming up from the south; good access from the north) to Death Valley. A station in Olancha would better serve northbound Death Valley travelers, but is a bit far from the Mammoth Lakes/June Lake areas to easily make the round trip un-refueled. Eventually, 395 will need stations in Bridgeport, Lee Vining, Mammoth Lakes, Bishop, Lone Pine and Inyokern at a minimum, and maybe June Lake, Big Pine, Olancha and Independence as well, but the initial two locations of Lee Vining (June Lake or Mammoth Lakes are less desirable alternatives) and Lone Pine/Olancha will provide reasonably convenient access for visitors from both Northern and Southern California.

On I-5 north of Sacramento, a single station in Red Bluff would provide access to Lassen and Mt. Shasta as well as the lakes around Redding and also U.S. 101 to the west from the Bay Area and Sacramento, although commercial considerations (larger potential local FCEV sales) might favor Redding instead. Red Bluff is a bit far to make the round trip (165 miles + over 4k feet of climb 1-way) to the Shakespeare Festival in Ashland, OR, which many Northern Californians in the higher income demographics that can afford an FCEV attend, and even Redding's 137 miles 1-way, so another station in the Mt. Shasta/Dunsmuir/Weed area would be needed for that, unless Oregon gets on board H2 and builds a station in Ashland.

Other than the above, expansion will be needed up 101 north of Rohnert Park to reach Eureka/Arcata, although the Fort Bragg round trip should be doable from there. Monterey/Carmel/Pacific Grove are already under consideration, but another in San Luis Obispo and/or Paso Robles to handle people doing the S.R. 1/U.S. 101 loop would be helpful.

As for Joshua Tree, I assume that there will be something in the Palm Springs-Indio area at some point. Las Vegas travelers will need a station around Baker, because Barstow is too far from L.V. to do the round trip (unless someone in Nevada is willing to build a station in Las Vegas. Considering the income demographic of the average FCEV customer, that might well happen in the not too distant future, as it did early on with Tesla chargers.

Thanks again for the test drive of the F-cell as well as the conversation on Saturday. I'll be happy to answer any questions or provide any assistance I can, so please feel free to pass my email address along. Unfortunately, my hearing is so bad now that phone conversations are mainly an exercise in frustration for both parties.

He replied and said he'd passed the email along to the appropriate people. I've done similar 'lobbying' with Tesla, sending them recommendations on needed SC sites. Whether or not that influenced Tesla's decision to put SCs in Groveland, Fish Camp, Fresno, Topaz Lake (most of us on TMC were suggesting Gardnerville/Minden, but Topaz Lake's good), Lone Pine, Inyokern, Mojave and Mammoth Lakes (most of us on TMC were asking for and would have preferred Lee Vining), I can't say, but it certainly didn't hurt. if you don't speak up and state your wishes in advance, IMO you've got no right to complain if they aren't met. I assume that these companies want input from potential and actual customers, and I've never been bashful about offering mine. I certainly valued well-thought out customer comments when I was on the other side of the fence selling off-grid RE, a similarly immature and rapidly expanding tech at the time I was doing it.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
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Re: Official Honda Clarity FCEV/BEV/PHEV thread

Thu Mar 02, 2017 3:07 pm

Per Good Car/Bad Car, U.S. Clarity sales (leases) in January were 42, and 27 in February http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2016/11/honda-fcx-sales-figures-usa-yearly-monthly.html I've been seeing lots of the Mirai Super Bowl TV ad, but nothing so far from Honda.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
Posts: 6844
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Official Honda Clarity FCEV/BEV/PHEV thread

Fri Mar 03, 2017 4:27 pm

GetOffYourGas wrote:Roger, thanks for the link. I still confused though. If that is really the battery under the seat, why is it so large? <snip>

I've been looking for some months, but have been unable to find any reference for the size of the battery pack in the Clarity FCEV. I'd assume its storage capacity is <2 kWh, but hybrid batteries are power rather than energy batteries, designed for rapid, repeated charge and discharge cycles.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
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Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Official Honda Clarity FCEV/BEV/PHEV thread

Mon Mar 20, 2017 4:45 pm

Via ABG:
The future is now | 2017 Honda Clarity Fuel Cell First Drive
http://www.autoblog.com/2017/03/20/2017 ... ve-review/

Generally quite positive.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

JasonA
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Re: Official Honda Clarity FCEV/BEV/PHEV thread

Tue Mar 21, 2017 12:38 pm

H2 can be positive all it wants, its still not feasible.
2012 10kw Dual LQ cooled Brusa powered Leaf "Astro"
13kw Enphase System,SolarWorld Panels, QuickMountPV- ALL USA!!
2014 Rav4 "SuperRav"with JdeMO (CHAdeMO)
2015 MS-70D

GetOffYourGas
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Re: Official Honda Clarity FCEV/BEV/PHEV thread

Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:36 pm

JasonA wrote:H2 can be positive all it wants, its still not feasible.


Are you saying that a Honda Accord that costs as much as a Tesla Model S to buy and more than a Hummer H1 to fuel isn't feasible?
~Brian

EV Fleet:
2011 Torqeedo Travel 1003 electric outboard on a 22' sailboat
2012 Leaf SV
2015 C-Max Energi (302A package)

JasonA
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Re: Official Honda Clarity FCEV/BEV/PHEV thread

Tue Mar 21, 2017 4:28 pm

LOL...

If I had this vehicle and wanted to make the trip to Anza Borrego, Salton Sea, etc to see the Superbloom as we did this last weekend H2 would not work.

The only station that is near by says "This station will have limited capacity between 11 AM and 1:30 PM today (3/21)." :lol: and has for 1 week already.

And we did 410+ miles in 1 day in the S with 4+ people and loaded with gear, etc. And the little towns were running out gas and people were stuck. We only SpC'd once.

There's always electricity to charge! ;) No H2 around however.

And the Model S's are getting cheap.. especially used 12's and 13s.. I'd take a used 12 85 with 100k+ miles over a new H2 ANYTHING any day of the week.
2012 10kw Dual LQ cooled Brusa powered Leaf "Astro"
13kw Enphase System,SolarWorld Panels, QuickMountPV- ALL USA!!
2014 Rav4 "SuperRav"with JdeMO (CHAdeMO)
2015 MS-70D

GRA
Posts: 6844
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Official Honda Clarity FCEV/BEV/PHEV thread

Tue Mar 21, 2017 4:50 pm

JasonA wrote:H2 can be positive all it wants, its still not feasible.

Of course it's feasible - what it's not is cost-effective (for now). The question is whether it can be made cost-effective in the future.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

JasonA
Posts: 563
Joined: Thu May 09, 2013 10:16 am
Delivery Date: 04 May 2013
Location: Sylmar, CA

Re: Official Honda Clarity FCEV/BEV/PHEV thread

Tue Mar 21, 2017 5:11 pm

It's not feasible, a H2 owner can't go everywhere an electric or ICE owner can. Again, I wouldn't have been able to make the trip like we did with the 70D loaded down with people and gear this last weekend.

So no, it's not feasible. If I want to go Lake Shasta and back up and over Donner Pass and down 395...

No, it's not feasible.

Am I clear?

P.S. And BTW, they say they efficiency of the Clarity FC is NOT that great. Bigger tank needed for more range. :roll:
2012 10kw Dual LQ cooled Brusa powered Leaf "Astro"
13kw Enphase System,SolarWorld Panels, QuickMountPV- ALL USA!!
2014 Rav4 "SuperRav"with JdeMO (CHAdeMO)
2015 MS-70D

GRA
Posts: 6844
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Official Honda Clarity FCEV/BEV/PHEV thread

Tue Mar 21, 2017 5:41 pm

JasonA wrote:It's not feasible, a H2 owner can't go everywhere an electric or ICE owner can. Again, I wouldn't have been able to make the trip like we did with the 70D loaded down with people and gear this last weekend.

So no, it's not feasible. If I want to go Lake Shasta and back up and over Donner Pass and down 395...

No, it's not feasible.

Am I clear?

P.S. And BTW, they say they efficiency of the Clarity FC is NOT that great. Bigger tank needed for more range. :roll:

We've already been over this. All cars depend on fueling/charging infrastructure. Provide the infrastructure, and such trips are feasible. Don't and they aren't. Since providing the infrastructure is feasible, the trip is feasible (but not currently doable, lacking that infrastructure). In that case, you can avail yourself of the 7 days of free car rentals a year that both Toyota and Honda are providing to their FCEV customers to cover those trips beyond the fueling infrastructure, until such time as the infrastructure is built where you need it. If it isn't likely to be built and you don't have other options, why would you even put yourself in a position to be so limited? Get a different car.
Last edited by GRA on Tue Mar 21, 2017 7:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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