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RegGuheert
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Re: Official Honda Clarity FCEV/BEV/PHEV thread

Mon Nov 27, 2017 6:14 pm

GRA wrote:None of this tells us what's going to happen with the 2nd gen. battery,...
Nonsense. Volt Gen 2 has been on the road for two years now. If there were a degradation problem, we would have heard about it by now. If you think there is one, just provide the links to the customer complaints.

A company's attitude toward supporting their product is more important than the technology they use. Honda was the first mover in hybrid cars and demonstrated that they would not support their product. As a result, they lost the market to Toyota. If they want to regain market share, they need to prove that their product works. Chevrolet has already done that in spades.

Please don't keep trying to turn reality upside down. As a person who has refused to purchase ANY vehicle with a traction battery for nearly two decades of availability, you come here are and malign the products on the market and proclaim that something in the future will best them. Yet your signature reads "The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'". You need to take note of what that actually means.
RegGuheert
2011 Leaf SL Demo vehicle
10K miles: Apr 14, 2013, 20K miles (55.7Ah): Aug 7, 2014, 30K miles (52.0Ah): Dec 30, 2015, 40K miles (49.8Ah): Feb 8, 2017, 50K miles (47.2Ah): Dec 7, 2017.
Enphase Inverter Measured MTBF: M190, M215, M250, S280

GRA
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Re: Official Honda Clarity FCEV/BEV/PHEV thread

Mon Nov 27, 2017 6:58 pm

RegGuheert wrote:
GRA wrote:None of this tells us what's going to happen with the 2nd gen. battery,...
Nonsense. Volt Gen 2 has been on the road for two years now. If there were a degradation problem, we would have heard about it by now. If you think there is one, just provide the links to the customer complaints.

A company's attitude toward supporting their product is more important than the technology they use.
Actually, both are important, for the customer and the company. For example, Nissan battery design failed the customer owing to both its tech and the company's lack of support. Tesla has had their share of problems with their tech (not the battery), but has had excellent support. GM has done a great job with the tech on the Volt, so customer support hasn't been an issue so far. Given GM's generally poor record in that area over the past three decades or so, that's a good thing.

RegGuheert wrote:Honda was the first mover in hybrid cars and demonstrated that they would not support their product. As a result, they lost the market to Toyota. If they want to regain market share, they need to prove that their product works. Chevrolet has already done that in spades.
I agree that the 1st Gen. Volt has held up well, and hope that the 2nd Gen. does as well, but that remains unproven. As it is, probably the most reliable car I've ever owned was the '65 Impala that was passed on to me from my dad (a self-described 'GM man') and which served the family for 23 years and 240k miles before being sold still in good working order, but that doesn't mean that '70s-'80s Impalas (and GM products generally) weren't crap - they were.

RegGuheert wrote:Please don't keep trying to turn reality upside down. As a person who has refused to purchase ANY vehicle with a traction battery for nearly two decades of availability, you come here are and malign the products on the market and proclaim that something in the future will best them. Yet your signature reads "The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'". You need to take note of what that actually means.

Re my refusing to purchase any PEV (or FCEV) to date, as I've noted many times before, until some manufacturer makes an AFV that meets my requirements at a price I can afford and am willing to pay, with the necessary infrastructure to support it, of course I'm not going to blow tens of thousands of dollars on one. Is that sort of wasteful spending the kind of thing you do?

Where have I ever maligned the Volt's tech (other than its touchscreen HVAC/infotainment controls, which were largely replaced by physical controls in Gen 2)? I've said repeatedly that I thought GM took exactly the right approach when designing the Volt 1's battery pack. My concern is that they are being considerably less conservative with the way they are using the 2nd gen. pack, going for the 'best' instead of the 'good enough'. 'Good enough' with the greater capacity 2nd gen. battery but the same usable SOC range as the 1st gen. would provide 45 miles AER rather than 53.

Maybe they're confident that the new pack (which employs a larger % of NMC to LMO) will hold up as well as the previous pack did despite the less conservative SoC range; I certainly hope it does, as that will provide a cost, weight and volume advantage going forward. After all, the ideal battery would allow use of 100% of its total capacity all the time with no degradation, as is the case with ICEs powered by liquid fossil fuels. But they are taking an approach which is known to result in greater degradation for existing battery tech, so until we have long-term data to compare to the 1st gen batteries, I have reason to worry that they may throw away the excellent reputation advantage they gained with the 1st gen. battery, for short-term profit. That GM (along with most corporations) has done this repeatedly in the past is incontestable.

[Edit] Found AVTL's tests for the 2016 Volt battery:

https://avt.inl.gov/sites/default/files/pdf/phev/batteryVolt1377.pdf
https://avt.inl.gov/sites/default/files/pdf/phev/batteryVolt4657.pdf
https://avt.inl.gov/sites/default/files/pdf/phev/batteryVolt4673.pdf
https://avt.inl.gov/sites/default/files/pdf/phev/batteryVolt4913.pdf

There are also tests of the 2015 Accord Hybrid battery out to about 104k miles which show about the same % degradation as the Volts but at about 3 times the range, but as those are HEV batteries they aren't strictly comparable: https://avt.inl.gov/content/pubs-vehicles
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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RegGuheert
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Re: Official Honda Clarity FCEV/BEV/PHEV thread

Tue Nov 28, 2017 5:44 am

GRA wrote:Maybe they're confident that the new pack (which employs a larger % of NMC to LMO) will hold up as well as the previous pack did despite the less conservative SoC range; I certainly hope it does, as that will provide a cost, weight and volume advantage going forward.
I really don't think GM's goal was to have the new pack "hold up as well as the previous pack did". Rather I think their goal was to perform a cost take-out exercise while providing enhanced capabilities versus the Gen 1 Volt yet still exceeding customer expectations. This can be accomplished even if the new battery degrades slightly faster than the original one did. They certainly have the expertise, the data and the track record to make that trade-off effectively.
RegGuheert
2011 Leaf SL Demo vehicle
10K miles: Apr 14, 2013, 20K miles (55.7Ah): Aug 7, 2014, 30K miles (52.0Ah): Dec 30, 2015, 40K miles (49.8Ah): Feb 8, 2017, 50K miles (47.2Ah): Dec 7, 2017.
Enphase Inverter Measured MTBF: M190, M215, M250, S280

GRA
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Re: Official Honda Clarity FCEV/BEV/PHEV thread

Tue Nov 28, 2017 4:31 pm

RegGuheert wrote:
GRA wrote:Maybe they're confident that the new pack (which employs a larger % of NMC to LMO) will hold up as well as the previous pack did despite the less conservative SoC range; I certainly hope it does, as that will provide a cost, weight and volume advantage going forward.
I really don't think GM's goal was to have the new pack "hold up as well as the previous pack did". Rather I think their goal was to perform a cost take-out exercise while providing enhanced capabilities versus the Gen 1 Volt yet still exceeding customer expectations. This can be accomplished even if the new battery degrades slightly faster than the original one did. They certainly have the expertise, the data and the track record to make that trade-off effectively.

That's the question - which is more valuable to the consumer, a smaller SoC range which results in smaller usable capacity when new, but the same usable capacity for a longer period of time; or maximizing the initial (EPA) range, while possibly suffering faster degradation and winding up with less capacity over the long haul? The latter is undoubtedly preferable from a sales perspective, which is why Nissan removed the 80% "long-life" setting from the 2013+ LEAF.

I happen to think that most Volt 1 customers have been very pleased that their batteries haven't suffered any degradation (noticeable to them), which means that people can ignore it. LEAF customers, OTOH, have had to deal with rapidly declining range and have been unhappy about it. Last I checked the average time that the initial owner of a new car kept it was up to 79 months, which is about where the earliest Volts are now, so designing the pack to show no owner-noticeable degradation for at least that time seems like a good idea to me with eight, ten or more years even better; average age of the vehicles in the LD fleet is now 11.6 years IIRR. I wonder which approach customers would opt for, if given the choice between the more conservative approach or the extra 8 miles of range when new. Of course, it's possible to arrange charging so that the battery isn't charged to its maximum voltage, but I suspect most customers (who are not denizens of EV forums) are unaware of this, or that there might be a reason to do so. That will certainly be the case going forward as PEVs cross over to the mainstream.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

Foschas
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Re: Official Honda Clarity FCEV/BEV/PHEV thread

Fri Dec 01, 2017 7:25 am


carbuyer2014
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Re: Official Honda Clarity FCEV/BEV/PHEV thread

Fri Dec 01, 2017 8:29 am

Those lease rates are not very attractive.

GetOffYourGas
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Re: Official Honda Clarity FCEV/BEV/PHEV thread

Fri Dec 01, 2017 9:40 am

I received an automated email today from my local Honda dealer. They expect to have the PHEV on hand by the end of December. I'll definitely be checking it out. The CMax lease is up next summer, but I doubt my wife would part with it. And now that Ford stopped making them, we may just buy out the lease.
~Brian

EV Fleet:
2011 Torqeedo Travel 1003 electric outboard on a 22' sailboat
2012 Leaf SV (traded for Bolt)
2015 C-Max Energi (302A package)
2017 Bolt Premier

GRA
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Re: Official Honda Clarity FCEV/BEV/PHEV thread

Mon Dec 04, 2017 5:50 pm

Via IEVS and GCR, 459 Clarity BEVs were sold/leased in November! Beats me why. Also, 5 PHEVs were apparently delivered, and no FCEVs. We finally have an explanation of why no FCEVs have been leased for the past two months, via GCR:
. . .Natalie Kumaratne, a senior environment and safety specialist for American Honda.

As an aside, no hydrogen-powered Claritys were delivered in November for the second month in a row. "New Clarity Fuel Cell shipments have been delayed pending a software update," Kumaratne said. "This brief delay will not affect our planned production volume, and we're working hard to meet the expectations of customers eagerly awaiting their cars," she continued. "We expect to quickly catch back up with planned deliveries shortly after the update becomes available. . . ."
Last edited by GRA on Mon Dec 04, 2017 8:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

edatoakrun
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Re: Official Honda Clarity FCEV/BEV/PHEV thread

Mon Dec 04, 2017 6:03 pm

GRA wrote:Via IEVS and GCR, 459 Clarity BEVs were sold/leased in November! Beats me why...

If you were a BEV driver, you might understand...
no condition is permanent

GRA
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Re: Official Honda Clarity FCEV/BEV/PHEV thread

Mon Dec 04, 2017 8:43 pm

edatoakrun wrote:
GRA wrote:Via IEVS and GCR, 459 Clarity BEVs were sold/leased in November! Beats me why...

If you were a BEV driver, you might understand...

I would understand why I'd pay more for less range than any other 2nd gen BEV? I'm not a current BEV driver, but I've driven them, and I understand what value for money is - the Clarity BEV doesn't have it, especially when compared to the PHEV.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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