JasonA
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Re: Official Honda Clarity FCEV/BEV/PHEV thread

Wed Mar 01, 2017 7:35 pm

I do have a serious question for you GRA since you're the main pusher of H2 on there. And I don't mean that in a bad way, you're just the biggest(only) advocate for H2 on here really so my question is this.....

This last week was my birthday so my wife and I took the S for a 804 mile trek in 3 days.

Friday.. Leaving Burbank to Lone Pine.. Supercharging. Going to Whitney Portal.. coming back down and going to Manzanar then racing to Independence.

Sat.. Racing back down to Lone Pine, SC'ing.. then to Death Valley. Furnace Creek, Badwater then back to Lone Pine (SC'd) the up to Bishop.

Sun. Go up to Lake Isabella 8,450ft (almost, rd closed).. back down, Schats ;) then back to Lone Pine (SC'd) High speed 85+ mph burn to Mojave.. 15min stop.. then home at 31%..

There is NO WAY ANY H2 vehicle could have made this trip. Not now, not in the future.

I remember on "Who killed the electric car" the who Hydrogen Hwy was coming, where is that?

I'd like to know when this H2 dream is coming?
2012 10kw Dual LQ cooled Brusa powered Leaf "Astro"
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GRA
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Re: Official Honda Clarity FCEV/BEV/PHEV thread

Wed Mar 01, 2017 8:22 pm

JasonA wrote:I do have a serious question for you GRA since you're the main pusher of H2 on there. And I don't mean that in a bad way, you're just the biggest(only) advocate for H2 on here really so my question is this.....

I'm not an H2 advocate, I'm a supporter of any reasonably promising ZEV tech that has the potential to get us off fossil fuels. I believe that currently there are three such, batteries/BEVs, H2/FCEVs, and biofuels, and am willing to support continued development and limited deployment in the near certainty that we'll be likely wasting several hundred to some billions of dollars, until one or more of them is able to completely replace fossil-fueled ICEs, and the public are willing to buy them in the requisite numbers without having to be bribed to do so. As this is a topic that has been covered to death in the H2 and FCEV thread, any further discussion of it here is OT.

JasonA wrote:This last week was my birthday so my wife and I took the S for a 804 mile trek in 3 days.

Friday.. Leaving Burbank to Lone Pine.. Supercharging. Going to Whitney Portal.. coming back down and going to Manzanar then racing to Independence.

Sat.. Racing back down to Lone Pine, SC'ing.. then to Death Valley. Furnace Creek, Badwater then back to Lone Pine (SC'd) the up to Bishop.

Sun. Go up to Lake Isabella 8,450ft (almost, rd closed).. back down, Schats ;) then back to Lone Pine (SC'd) High speed 85+ mph burn to Mojave.. 15min stop.. then home at 31%..

There is NO WAY ANY H2 vehicle could have made this trip. Not now, not in the future.

Oh, don't be ridiculous. You might as well have said that "No H2 vehicle could have made a trip from LA to Tahoe and back. Not now, not in the future." http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=17145&p=471184&hilit=on+the+same+487#p471184

Or for that matter "No BEV could have made the trip. Not now, not in the future", which was true up to about 18 months ago, when Tesla completed the SCs along it. Any vehicle is dependent on fueling/charging infrastructure.

It's certainly true that no FCEV can make your trip now owing to lack of infrastructure, but any H2 vehicle can make the trip to and from any point along 395 from Tahoe south as soon as they build an H2 station in Lone Pine (or somewhere close by; it or Olancha was one of the locations I recommended to the CAFCP) and someplace like Lee Vining, with Bishop or Mammoth as options, plus (depending on how much driving someone does there; for your trip you wouldn't need it), a station in Death Valley. There's no need for one in Mojave, although it's a nice to have. I also suggested one in Baker, both for round trips to Las Vegas as well as allowing a loop through Death Valley from Lone Pine/Olancha.

JasonA wrote:I remember on "Who killed the electric car" the who Hydrogen Hwy was coming, where is that?

I'd like to know when this H2 dream is coming?

See the California H2 stations thread for that, as it has both the current and next round of funding plans. Currently there are 25 full retail stations, including 4 (Sacramento, Harris Ranch, Del Mar and Truckee) [Edit: I should add two more, Santa Barbara and San Juan Capistrano] that are part of a hydrogen highway network that allows inter-regional travel. Unfortunately, while they're adding redundancy to I-5 in the next round, neither adds coverage for 395, and I've been lobbying CAFCP to get some along it as well as some serving Yosemite and Sequoia/Kings Canyon. The next round of funding solicitations should be dated 2017, but based on the lag time between solicitation for and award of the current round of grants they probably won't be awarded until mid-2018 or early 2019.
Last edited by GRA on Sat Mar 18, 2017 4:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

JasonA
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Re: Official Honda Clarity FCEV/BEV/PHEV thread

Wed Mar 01, 2017 10:11 pm

So you are lobbying them? Funny thing is every year you keep saying the same thing.

And no, there's not a single H2 vehicle that could have completed the trip I did in the amount of time I did.
2012 10kw Dual LQ cooled Brusa powered Leaf "Astro"
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2014 Rav4 "SuperRav"with JdeMO (CHAdeMO)
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GetOffYourGas
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Re: Official Honda Clarity FCEV/BEV/PHEV thread

Thu Mar 02, 2017 7:42 am

GRA wrote:No, the FC stack and related components are all under the hood. I imagine what's under the front seats in the FCEV is the hybrid battery, to provide extra power for accel/storage for regen. All current FCEVs are FCHEVs. There looks to be plenty of room in the cargo area for more battery, at some sacrifice in depth to be sure (they'd need to do a much better job than Ford did - VW seems to have managed it with no problem), but still providing a much more practical space. When I looked at the Clarity back during Fleet Week in S.F., the small sized, awkwardly-shaped trunk would have been enough to rule it out immediately for me if I were interested.


I am aware of the presence of a battery. But I assumed that was not just the battery under the seats. I thought I read somewhere that was the fuel cell stack.

The Clarity has something like a 1kWh battery. Enough for some buffer / regen. My old 2010 Insight had a 0.5kWh battery located in the trunk, under the spare tire (yes, the Insight came with a donut spare, none of this fix-a-flat nonsense). It was much smaller than half of what you call the battery in the Clarity. AND it was NiMH, not Lithium. So I assume that the box under the seat is much too large to be the battery.

I'm not personally in the market for a FCEV, notably because there are no fueling stations. I personally wouldn't buy one unless it had a plug-in option (no reason it can't) with enough AER to handle my daily driving. But the BEV was of interest until I heard its dismal range. Still, I wonder what the trunk of the BEV will look like. Will Honda reclaim all of that space, giving back a normal size/shape trunk?
~Brian

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GetOffYourGas
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Re: Official Honda Clarity FCEV/BEV/PHEV thread

Thu Mar 02, 2017 7:47 am

JasonA wrote:So you are lobbying them? Funny thing is every year you keep saying the same thing.

And no, there's not a single H2 vehicle that could have completed the trip I did in the amount of time I did.


Honest question, Jason: Can you provide evidence that GRA is "lobbying" or "advocating" hydrogen?

Because all I see here is him sharing information about it. He has spelled out in great detail the (few) advantages of hydrogen over a battery. In short, they are quick refueling and large-scale storage of renewables. Whether or not you or I or GRA believe it is a viable path forward, many large companies (like Honda and Toyota) seem to think it is. So GRA shares their progress.
~Brian

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JasonA
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Re: Official Honda Clarity FCEV/BEV/PHEV thread

Thu Mar 02, 2017 9:44 am

GetOffYourGas wrote:
JasonA wrote:So you are lobbying them? Funny thing is every year you keep saying the same thing.

And no, there's not a single H2 vehicle that could have completed the trip I did in the amount of time I did.


Honest question, Jason: Can you provide evidence that GRA is "lobbying" or "advocating" hydrogen?

Because all I see here is him sharing information about it. He has spelled out in great detail the (few) advantages of hydrogen over a battery. In short, they are quick refueling and large-scale storage of renewables. Whether or not you or I or GRA believe it is a viable path forward, many large companies (like Honda and Toyota) seem to think it is. So GRA shares their progress.
He said...

it or Olancha was one of the locations I recommended to the CAFCP) and someplace like Lee Vining, with Bishop or Mammoth as options,
When I hear and see that along with his past posts... yes, in my mind he is one..

And to quote him some more...
Or for that matter "No BEV could have made the trip. Not now, not in the future", which was true up to about 18 months ago, when Tesla completed the SCs along it. Any vehicle is dependent on fueling/charging infrastructure.
I've made that trip before in my Rav4EV using RV park charging... not the S

Tons of RavEV and Leaf owners in Vegas have made the trip to LA (to our EV meets) using the RV parks (14-50's)... so no, it's NOT possible now on H2

It's not possible in the future.. and I just watched key parts of WKTEC again last night and that H2 pusher/ lobbyist (was that you? lol)

A 2006 movie, and the H2 guys said by 2015, the state WILL BE FLOODED WITH STATIONS and by 2020, H2 will be the DOMINATE fuel of choice...

hmm
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GetOffYourGas
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Re: Official Honda Clarity FCEV/BEV/PHEV thread

Thu Mar 02, 2017 12:17 pm

JasonA wrote:He said...

it or Olancha was one of the locations I recommended to the CAFCP) and someplace like Lee Vining, with Bishop or Mammoth as options,
When I hear and see that along with his past posts... yes, in my mind he is one..


Ok, I can see where you're coming from I guess. When I read that, though, I assumed that the CAFCP was already planning on spending money on a fueling station. Maybe they even asked for inputs on desirable locations. So if all Guy did is to respond to a request, that's still not really lobbying for them.

He basically has three options:
1) Recommend a location which makes sense to him (seems a logical, rational thing to do, even if simply open-minded about the possibility of FCVs working)
2) Ignore the request. This is what I'd expect most people to do who don't care about FCVs.
3) Make a bad recommendation in order to try to sabotage FCVs. Clearly neither of us would expect him to do that.
~Brian

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GRA
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Re: Official Honda Clarity FCEV/BEV/PHEV thread

Thu Mar 02, 2017 2:04 pm

JasonA wrote:So you are lobbying them? Funny thing is every year you keep saying the same thing.

And no, there's not a single H2 vehicle that could have completed the trip I did in the amount of time I did.

True enough now as it's beyond the maximum radius from an H2 station, but when/if the necessary H2 stations are built any FCEV will be able to complete the trip in less time than it took you, just as the Mirai was able to beat the Model X by 90 minutes (would have been more if the driver hadn't stopped to take some pictures) from Santa Monica to Tahoe (and beat it back, even though taking a longer route that also involved an out of the way detour), or any ICE would. There's no way to reasonably argue that a car with greater range and faster refueling will be slower or unable to make the trip you did in your Tesla using SCs, if the fueling infrastructure exists.

BTW, since you brought up doing similar trips in a RAV4EV, my comment was based on doing the trip "in the time you did" or less, which obviously isn't the case if you have to L2 charge at RV parks. Depending on routing, you probably couldn't have done that trip at all in the course of a weekend in a RAV4EV. Certainly you would have had to plan the whole trip around charging stops, to a much greater extent than is necessary with SCs. In the case of a car with fast refueling, the only 'planning' you need to do is to make sure you've got the necessary range to/from a station - where you choose to eat/sleep/recreate can be unrelated. Now, back on topic.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
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Re: Official Honda Clarity FCEV/BEV/PHEV thread

Thu Mar 02, 2017 2:16 pm

GetOffYourGas wrote:
GRA wrote:No, the FC stack and related components are all under the hood. I imagine what's under the front seats in the FCEV is the hybrid battery, to provide extra power for accel/storage for regen. All current FCEVs are FCHEVs. There looks to be plenty of room in the cargo area for more battery, at some sacrifice in depth to be sure (they'd need to do a much better job than Ford did - VW seems to have managed it with no problem), but still providing a much more practical space. When I looked at the Clarity back during Fleet Week in S.F., the small sized, awkwardly-shaped trunk would have been enough to rule it out immediately for me if I were interested.


I am aware of the presence of a battery. But I assumed that was not just the battery under the seats. I thought I read somewhere that was the fuel cell stack. <snip>

The stack in previous generation Claritys was in the tunnel. Honda's made a big deal of pointing out that they were able to shrink the size (i.e. boost the power density) of their newest stack and related components so that everything fits under the hood. See http://world.honda.com/automobile-technology/engineer-talk/CLARITY/
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GetOffYourGas
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Re: Official Honda Clarity FCEV/BEV/PHEV thread

Thu Mar 02, 2017 2:42 pm

Roger, thanks for the link. I still confused though. If that is really the battery under the seat, why is it so large?

And when will we see cutaway views of the BEV version? (looking at you, Honda).
~Brian

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