Stoaty
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Re: Official Honda Clarity FCEV/BEV/PHEV thread

Tue Mar 21, 2017 5:57 pm

GRA wrote:Via ABG:
Honda has a super creepy ad for the Clarity Fuel Cell
http://www.autoblog.com/2017/02/08/cree ... -ad-video/

Every time I see this ad (which is pretty often) I think of little kids being sacrificed on the altar of FCEV with the oil companies performing the ritual. Truly we would be sacrificing their future by wasting money on fuel cell vehicles and the exorbitant cost of the required fueling stations.
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GRA
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Re: Official Honda Clarity FCEV/BEV/PHEV thread

Tue Mar 21, 2017 7:47 pm

Stoaty wrote:
GRA wrote:Via ABG:
Honda has a super creepy ad for the Clarity Fuel Cell
http://www.autoblog.com/2017/02/08/cree ... -ad-video/

Every time I see this ad (which is pretty often) I think of little kids being sacrificed on the altar of FCEV with the oil companies performing the ritual. Truly we would be sacrificing their future by wasting money on fuel cell vehicles and the exorbitant cost of the required fueling stations.

Which is why developing competitively-priced renewable H2 and reducing the cost of the fueling stations through continuing R&D as well as the cost-savings possible from mass production will be critical to the success or failure of H2/FCEVs. If that can't be done, they'll assuredly fail - if it can be done, then they have a chance to succeed (always with the understanding that they will be compared with the available alternatives, with the public having the ultimate say).
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

Stoaty
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Re: Official Honda Clarity FCEV/BEV/PHEV thread

Tue Mar 21, 2017 9:10 pm

GRA wrote:Which is why developing competitively-priced renewable H2 and reducing the cost of the fueling stations through continuing R&D as well as the cost-savings possible from mass production will be critical to the success or failure of H2/FCEVs. If that can't be done, they'll assuredly fail - if it can be done, then they have a chance to succeed (always with the understanding that they will be compared with the available alternatives, with the public having the ultimate say).

H2 will never be cost competitive with electricity, and in an energy constrained future (may be a matter of decades, but virtually certain to happen) we won't be able to afford to waste the electricity on inefficient production, transport and storage of H2.
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GRA
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Re: Official Honda Clarity FCEV/BEV/PHEV thread

Wed Mar 22, 2017 5:53 pm

Stoaty wrote:
GRA wrote:Which is why developing competitively-priced renewable H2 and reducing the cost of the fueling stations through continuing R&D as well as the cost-savings possible from mass production will be critical to the success or failure of H2/FCEVs. If that can't be done, they'll assuredly fail - if it can be done, then they have a chance to succeed (always with the understanding that they will be compared with the available alternatives, with the public having the ultimate say).

H2 will never be cost competitive with electricity, and in an energy constrained future (may be a matter of decades, but virtually certain to happen) we won't be able to afford to waste the electricity on inefficient production, transport and storage of H2.

Which assumes that renewable H2

1. Will always need to be produced by electrolysis;

2. Will always need to be transported and stored at high pressures;

3. and that H2/FCEVs alone will make up the AFV transport fleet.

Neither #1 or #2 is a necessity (with R&D underway in both areas and bio-mass H2 being used now; liquid H2 transport/storage is a mature tech, and early dem/val deployment of adsorbtion/nano storage is happening); and the last is unnecessary and almost certainly unwise. I expect BEVs/FCEVs/PHFCEVs/bio-fueled ICEs may all find a niche, the exact size of which will be determined by their relative capabilities and costs.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
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Re: Official Honda Clarity FCEV/BEV/PHEV thread

Wed Mar 22, 2017 7:19 pm

Brad Berman at Plugincars.com, on the Clarity PHEV:
The Popular Version of the New Honda Clarity Will Be the Plug-in
http://plugincars.com/popular-version-n ... 32712.html

Supposedly 40 mile AER, with the same 5-pax space as the other powertrains, including more headroom than the Volt (a definite issue for some, especially in the rear). Hopefully the cargo space won't be as restricted as in the FCEV (and maybe the BEV, which i haven't seen). Pricing will be critical.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
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Re: Official Honda Clarity FCEV/BEV/PHEV thread

Wed Mar 22, 2017 7:53 pm

JasonA wrote:
If I had this vehicle and wanted to make the trip to Anza Borrego, Salton Sea, etc to see the Superbloom as we did this last weekend H2 would not work.

The only station that is near by says "This station will have limited capacity between 11 AM and 1:30 PM today (3/21)." :lol: and has for 1 week already.

And we did 410+ miles in 1 day in the S with 4+ people and loaded with gear, etc. And the little towns were running out gas and people were stuck. We only SpC'd once.

There's always electricity to charge! ;) No H2 around however.

To which I replied that it wasn't doable now, but would be once the infrastructure was in place. Turns out I was wrong, as Anza Borrego, Joshua Tree and Salton Sea are all doable for you now. Checking Google maps, it's 127 miles from the H2 station in Diamond Bar to Anza Borrego state park (presumably the HQ), so the 254 mile round trip is well inside the max. range of both the Mirai (312 miles) and Clarity ((366) FCEVs. The Mirai might require some slower driving depending on conditions, and might be limited in the amount of local driving you could do once there. Even closer is the just-opened Riverside station, at 112 miles one way or 224 round trip; however, they're currently down (don't know what the status was this weekend).

[Edit: Anza Borrego's also within easy round-trip range from both the San Juan Capistrano and Del Mar H2 stations on I-5, if you wanted to go that way.]

Joshua Tree's even closer, 106 miles (212 round trip) from Diamond Bar, and either 84 or 105 miles (168 or 210 round trip) from the Riverside station. You can also easily do the loop from Riverside through Joshua Tree from I-10 to S.R. 60 or vice versa and back to Riverside in either car, as it's only 189 miles. Even the Tucson FCEV could reach Joshua Tree and return no sweat.

Salton Sea SRA is only 105 miles from Riverside, and Niland's 137, both via I-10/S.R. 111.

It seems "not ever" and "not feasible" have a short shelf life.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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Re: Official Honda Clarity FCEV/BEV/PHEV thread

Fri Mar 24, 2017 1:25 pm

No its not, and the Del Mar station is in and out of service as is the Riverside station that I posted earlier in the week that was "limited"... now it's "This station is currently offline for a component replacement and is expected to be back online by March 31st. Please check back for updates."

And that DelMar station is 183 miles away NOT INCLUDING hills, terrain, etc and we all know that a round trip would not make it stuck in traffic, AC blasting in the 100* heat, etc... you would be @$$ed out.

I love reading the Mirai and Hyundai FB forums.. that's where the real and TRUE owner experiences are at.. :lol:

And people get stuck and have limited range all the time..

Thanks for keep the dream alive GRA!

Offline "This station is closed for upgrade and planned to reopen in July 2017. A mobile fueler is available 7 days a week and is behind the visitor center."

Offline "This station is closed for upgrade and planned to reopen in July 2017. A mobile fueler is available 7 days a week and is behind the visitor center."

The one right near my house in Burbank "Limited and offline"

The future looks bright! Ohh wait! you can't see H2 burn! :lol:
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GRA
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Re: Official Honda Clarity FCEV/BEV/PHEV thread

Fri Mar 24, 2017 4:46 pm

JasonA wrote:No its not, and the Del Mar station is in and out of service as is the Riverside station that I posted earlier in the week that was "limited"... now it's "This station is currently offline for a component replacement and is expected to be back online by March 31st. Please check back for updates."

And that DelMar station is 183 miles away NOT INCLUDING hills, terrain, etc and we all know that a round trip would not make it stuck in traffic, AC blasting in the 100* heat, etc... you would be @$$ed out.

Per Google maps, it's 81.4 miles one way to Anza Borrego Visitor Center from the Del Mar station via Montezuma Valley Rd. (or 100 miles via I-5 & S.R. 76), and Joshua Tree V.C. is 151 miles (pushing it in a Mirai, probably okay in a Clarity), so I have no idea where you come up with 183 miles.

As I wrote, Riverside is currently offline (as it just opened, teething troubles aren't unexpected), but I have no idea whether or not it was open this past weekend. Del Mar, Diamond Bar and San Juan Capistrano are all online (but La Canada-Flintridge on I-210 is currently off line). People get stuck when SCs go down as well. Did you not see my posting in the Tesla SC thread, mentioning how both Cabazon and Indio had been down owing to vandalism (cables cut, presumably copper thieves) at different times in the past few months? Owners discovered and reported this upon arriving there, because Tesla didn't know. We've also had instances of SCs being down for maintenance with little or no warning, newly opened SCs which closed almost immediately owing to problems and re-opened again (power quality issues usually - IIRR one of the Michigan SCs was the most recent to do this dance), etc. There's no doubt that having a high density of stations combined with multiple dispensers per station (for electricity, gas, H2 or whatever) is the most robust option, but that takes time to implement (Tesla's got the multiple 'dispensers' per site, but generally not the density yet except in a few areas). H2 is starting to achieve reasonable density (redundancy) in SoCal, but the rest of the state other than Silicon Valley doesn't have it yet, and we won't start seeing multiple H2 dispensers per station until the larger capacity (prob. 350kg. +) stations begin to open.

JasonA wrote:I love reading the Mirai and Hyundai FB forums.. that's where the real and TRUE owner experiences are at.. :lol:

And people get stuck and have limited range all the time..
No doubt people who don't leave themselves adequate reserve with fueling options get stuck, just as BEV owners do. But that's generally restricted to the newbies - most people are smart enough to learn from their mistakes.

JasonA wrote:Thanks for keep the dream alive GRA!

Offline "This station is closed for upgrade and planned to reopen in July 2017. A mobile fueler is available 7 days a week and is behind the visitor center."

The one right near my house in Burbank "Limited and offline"

The future looks bright! Ohh wait! you can't see H2 burn! :lol:

The Burbank station is one of the left-over non-retail dem/val ones, and being largely experimental, those are notably less reliable (and less quickly maintained to get them back open rapidly) than the retail ones, as a cursory glance at the station status board here shows: http://m.cafcp.org/ BTW, Burbank is up as of when I'm writing this. As for not being able to see H2 burn, true, but then every station is required to have automatic heat-sensors and fire extinguishing (this applies to the gas pumps too, natch), so unless and until we start seeing lots of H2 fires in crashes barbecueing FCEV occupants and emergency responders, this seems to be a non-issue.
Last edited by GRA on Sat Mar 25, 2017 10:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

rmay635703
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Re: Official Honda Clarity FCEV/BEV/PHEV thread

Sat Mar 25, 2017 7:09 am

GRA wrote:Brad Berman at Plugincars.com, on the Clarity PHEV:
The Popular Version of the New Honda Clarity Will Be the Plug-in
http://plugincars.com/popular-version-n ... 32712.html

Supposedly 40 mile AER, with the same 5-pax space as the other powertrains.


Hopefully Honda is able to get 50mpg off the gas pig so it's a better in every way car.

Sadly though I don't expect more than compliance numbers from Honda, hence the 80 mile EV.

GRA
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Re: Official Honda Clarity FCEV/BEV/PHEV thread

Sat Mar 25, 2017 10:24 am

rmay635703 wrote:
GRA wrote:Brad Berman at Plugincars.com, on the Clarity PHEV:
The Popular Version of the New Honda Clarity Will Be the Plug-in
http://plugincars.com/popular-version-n ... 32712.html

Supposedly 40 mile AER, with the same 5-pax space as the other powertrains.


Hopefully Honda is able to get 50mpg off the gas pig so it's a better in every way car.

Sadly though I don't expect more than compliance numbers from Honda, hence the 80 mile EV.
I think the more important issue will be the Ionic PHEV's price - will it be sub-$30k to compete with the Prime and C-Max, or at least fall in between them and the Volt (the Sonata PHEV also needs some de-contenting/price reduction), or ridiculously overpriced like the Accord PHEV was?
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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