edatoakrun
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Re: Official Honda Clarity FCEV/BEV/PHEV thread

Fri Jan 05, 2018 2:18 pm

GRA wrote:...At least they've recognized that almost no one would buy the BEV, when there's so many other options that provide better value for the money, now and in the near future.

Silly speculation. At the right price, Honda could sell as many as it wanted to.

Both the BEV and PHEV are essentially conversions of the Clarity FCEV.

The BEV is a compliance car, and may only be produced in small numbers, for a few years.

Since leases comply just as well as sales do in earning ZEV credits, Why would Honda want to sell any of them?

Think of the massive headache Toyota gave itself by selling a few k RAV4Es, and obligating itself to support those crap-mobiles for many years, at great cost.

In three years, when the leases expire, Honda will have complete flexibility in deciding at how to dispose of the returned BEVs most profitably.
It can sell them in the USA or elsewhere if it wants, or can re-battery them first, or just remove the packs and send the rest to the crusher, if it wants to.
no condition is permanent

GRA
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Re: Official Honda Clarity FCEV/BEV/PHEV thread

Fri Jan 05, 2018 2:27 pm

edatoakrun wrote:
GRA wrote:...At least they've recognized that almost no one would buy the BEV, when there's so many other options that provide better value for the money, now and in the near future.

Silly speculation.

Both the BEV and PHEV are essentially conversions of the Clarity FCEV.
I could be wrong, but ISTR that they designed the Clarity to accept any of the three powertrains (much as Kia is doing).

edatoakrun wrote:The BEV is a compliance car, and may only be produced in small numbers, for a few years.

Good, we agree that it's specs so limit its market that it can't be anything else.

edatoakrun wrote:Since leases comply just as well as sales do in earning ZEV credits, Why would Honda want to sell any of them?

Think of the massive headache Toyota gave itself by selling a few k RAV4Es, and obligating itself to support those crap-mobiles for many years, at great cost.

In three years, when the leases expire, Honda will have complete flexibility in deciding at how to dispose of the returned BEVs most profitably.
It can sell them then, in the USA or elsewhere if it wants, or re-battery them first, or just send them to the crusher, if it wants to.

Yup, it's a throwaway.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

edatoakrun
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Re: Official Honda Clarity FCEV/BEV/PHEV thread

Fri Jan 05, 2018 2:59 pm

GRA wrote:
edatoakrun wrote:..In three years, when the leases expire, Honda will have complete flexibility in deciding at how to dispose of the returned BEVs most profitably.
It can sell them then, in the USA or elsewhere if it wants, or re-battery them first, or just remove the packs and send the rest to the crusher, if it wants to.

Yup, it's a throwaway.

Every ICEV you've ever owned was and is a throwaway car, as was/will be every HEV, small-pack PHEV, and FCEV that will ever be built.

Only BEVs have components with substantial second-life value, their battery packs.
In fact, in some ways it's depressing to think my 2011 LEAF pack could well survive me...
no condition is permanent

GRA
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Re: Official Honda Clarity FCEV/BEV/PHEV thread

Fri Jan 05, 2018 3:12 pm

edatoakrun wrote:
GRA wrote:
edatoakrun wrote:..In three years, when the leases expire, Honda will have complete flexibility in deciding at how to dispose of the returned BEVs most profitably.
It can sell them then, in the USA or elsewhere if it wants, or re-battery them first, or just remove the packs and send the rest to the crusher, if it wants to.

Yup, it's a throwaway.

Every ICEV you've ever owned was and is a throwaway.

We have different definitions of throwaway. A car's a durable good, and I expect it to last me a minimum of 15 years barring major accident (my Forester just turned 15 today, and given its light usage I expect it to easily make it to 20 or 25, i.e. long enough to get me to a ZEV that meets my needs, assuming I even buy another car instead of opting for some other mobility solution). A throwaway implies that something is low cost, low value and is expected to last such a short period of time that you really don't care what happens to it, and will discard it without a second thought and replace it with something equally temporary.

edatoakrun wrote:Only BEVs have components with substantial second-life value, their battery packs.
In fact, in some ways it's depressing to think my 2011 LEAF pack could well survive me...

Depends on the price of new battery packs when the time comes to re-purpose them, along with the costs of doing so. I'm all for re-using equipment, but have serious doubts about the viability of ex-car battery packs given that Li-ion (and beyond) batteries are so immature, and still seeing relatively rapid price reductions. If weight, space and cost aren't serious factors, then maybe.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
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Re: Official Honda Clarity FCEV/BEV/PHEV thread

Tue Feb 06, 2018 8:11 pm

Via GCR:
Why a Fiat 500e driver got a Honda Clarity Fuel Cell as his next green car: low cost
https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1115182_why-a-fiat-500e-driver-got-a-honda-clarity-fuel-cell-as-his-next-green-car-low-cost

. . . Baccus called the Fiat 500e "a great car" that he "really enjoyed driving," one that made it a pleasure to drive every day. But, he admitted, "it wasn't a car for everyone"—in particular his spouse, who simply didn't like riding in it. He wanted a bigger car that was still an alternative-fuel vehicle, and he was ready for one that wasn't 100-percent electric. . . .

Last June, when he moved from a house with off-street parking to a rented condo, the building owner wasn't open to installing an electric-car charging station. While he has access to a charging station at work, it's shared with others. "On some days," he said, "I'd have to email a coworker to ask when they were done charging to let me know. . . ."

Also, running costs in pricey Southern California always matter. Baccus built a spreadsheet of monthly costs for alternative green cars, from a high-fuel-efficiency conventional Honda Civic through hybrids, plug-in hybrids, and hydrogen fuel-cell cars. The top two cars for lowest costs per month were the Toyota Mirai ($406) and Honda Clarity Fuel Cell ($410), against the $416 for the basic Civic sedan and a whopping $530 for an Audi A3 e-tron plug-in hybrid hatchback.

"The deals on the Honda Clarity and Toyota Mirai were just too good to pass up," Baccus said, "plus I wanted to try hydrogen and see how that would go."

Plug-in hybrids, he explained, were less practical choices because they would suffer from the same lack of access to charging as a battery-electric vehicle would. Baccus said he chose the Clarity Fuel Cell over the Mirai because he liked the Clarity's looks, and especially its interior design, better. . . .

The $369 monthly lease includes not only the fuel allowance but all maintenance, a very competitive price for a premium mid-size sedan with numerous luxury features. With fuel free for all the miles he expects to cover and California's $5,000 clean-car rebate, Baccus calculated, his overall monthly cost for the hydrogen Clarity came in lower than a $169 monthly lease on a Honda Civic compact sedan.

Fueling up isn't an issue: "I have one station next to my kids’ school that I pass every morning," he said, "and another across from my work. . . ."

It's full of technology the Fiat didn't have, but drives "like an pure electric—quiet with a lot of instant power—that has with better range." And, he said, it eliminates the need for his family to have access to a charging station at home.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

cwerdna
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Re: Official Honda Clarity FCEV/BEV/PHEV thread

Tue Feb 06, 2018 11:51 pm

Why a Fiat 500e driver got a Honda Clarity Fuel Cell as his next green car: low cost:
https://www.greencarreports.com/news/11 ... r-low-cost

'13 Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
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Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

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RegGuheert
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Re: Official Honda Clarity FCEV/BEV/PHEV thread

Wed Feb 07, 2018 1:19 am

cwerdna wrote:Why a Fiat 500e driver got a Honda Clarity Fuel Cell as his next green car: low cost:
https://www.greencarreports.com/news/11 ... r-low-cost
It's the drug-pusher approach to sales. If you want someone to purchase something which is expensive and bad for them, you provide it for free or at a greatly-reduced price. In this case, the fuel is free and the vehicle is highly subsidized by both the manufacturer and the government.

This driver's gain is everyone else's loss.
RegGuheert
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finman100
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Re: Official Honda Clarity FCEV/BEV/PHEV thread

Wed Feb 07, 2018 11:08 am

longer range. ha. that's a good one. driving the full range of a hydrogen car will get you stranded. you know, 'cause there are so many places to re-fuel after that initial "fill" (sarcasm). Travel cross-country in one yet?

good grief we live in sad times when people like this think this stunt is a "great deal".

I've seen the Clarity EV in person here in OR. ugly. why wouldn't Honda make an EV Civic with it's fancy new stylish sheetmetal? Oh that's right they don't want to cash out of the ICE world. (face palm). ICE is limiting and EVs are your future.

C'mon. get out there and compete, Honda (or insert ALL other ICE mfgs name here).

I don't get it. why be on the losing side of the EV revolution? As if the physics and math are going to suddenly favor hydrogen? Pipe dreams.
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Joe6pack
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Re: Official Honda Clarity FCEV/BEV/PHEV thread

Wed Feb 07, 2018 11:10 am

I test drove the clarity hybrid and I have to say that I really like it. Problem is, Honda is not discounting the car at all and they are not passing along the $7500 tax credit on a lease. In fact, the lease quote I got was $717.36/mo for a 36/12 with $1000 down on a Touring ($37,390). That didn't include tax, tag, title or dealer fees. I can see with "Clarity" that they are insane.
2012 Leaf SL leased October 4th, 2012
Braselton, GA

EatsShootsandLeafs
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Re: Official Honda Clarity FCEV/BEV/PHEV thread

Wed Feb 07, 2018 1:17 pm

finman100 wrote:I've seen the Clarity EV in person here in OR. ugly.

Just looked at a picture. This is partly why hybrid and EV are looked down on by much of the public. Thing looks ugly as hell, and covering part of your rear wheel with sheet metal didn't look cool decades ago and still doesn't now.

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