GetOffYourGas
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Re: Official Honda Clarity FCEV/BEV/PHEV thread

Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:35 am

edatoakrun wrote:
GRA wrote:Via IEVS and GCR, 459 Clarity BEVs were sold/leased in November! Beats me why...

If you were a BEV driver, you might understand...


I've been a BEV driver for almost 6 years, and I also don't understand. Please enlighten us, Ed.

My best guess would be a strong loyalty to either the brand or the sedan form factor. Those are the only things that make the Clarity different from the slew of 100+ mile BEVs selling for a similar price.
~Brian

EV Fleet:
2011 Torqeedo Travel 1003 electric outboard on a 22' sailboat
2012 Leaf SV (traded for Bolt)
2015 C-Max Energi (302A package)
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GRA
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Re: Official Honda Clarity FCEV/BEV/PHEV thread

Tue Dec 05, 2017 6:07 pm

GetOffYourGas wrote:
edatoakrun wrote:
GRA wrote:Via IEVS and GCR, 459 Clarity BEVs were sold/leased in November! Beats me why...

If you were a BEV driver, you might understand...

I've been a BEV driver for almost 6 years, and I also don't understand. Please enlighten us, Ed.

My best guess would be a strong loyalty to either the brand or the sedan form factor. Those are the only things that make the Clarity different from the slew of 100+ mile BEVs selling for a similar price.

That's the only thing I can think of that sets it apart, but that doesn't require that I drive it. Once the regular range Model 3 arrives, a BEV sedan with ~ 2.5 times the range for not much more money, the value proposition of the Clarity drops even further. For those not wedded to a sedan, the Soul/e-Golf/Ionic/2018 LEAF all provide at least 110 miles of range and four or five seats for the same or less money as the Clarity.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

edatoakrun
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Re: Official Honda Clarity FCEV/BEV/PHEV thread

Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:32 pm

The clarity BEV is a relatively large sedan, reportedly having very nice appointments, many features and quality fit-and finish, and is available for very attractive lease terms, $700 down and 199/mo for a 36 month, 20k mile-per-year lease.

https://automobiles.honda.com/clarity-s ... &gclsrc=ds

I'm not at all surprised that some lessees have preferred it to a more expensive lease on a smaller LEAF/Golf/Soul/Ioniq hatch, with fewer features.

If 89 miles EPA range is enough for you, it is enough for you, which is the case for many drivers in the CA/OR coastal population centers, now that DC charge sites are ubiquitous.

As to the Tesla 3, the lease+maintenance costs of the base model (if and when it ever becomes available) will probably be (post incentives) two to three times that of the Clarity.

The model 3 just will not competitive with the Clarity, or any of the other BEVs mentioned, in terms of cost.

GRA wrote:
GetOffYourGas wrote:
edatoakrun wrote:If you were a BEV driver, you might understand...

I've been a BEV driver for almost 6 years, and I also don't understand. Please enlighten us, Ed.

My best guess would be a strong loyalty to either the brand or the sedan form factor. Those are the only things that make the Clarity different from the slew of 100+ mile BEVs selling for a similar price.

That's the only thing I can think of that sets it apart, but that doesn't require that I drive it. Once the regular range Model 3 arrives, a BEV sedan with ~ 2.5 times the range for not much more money, the value proposition of the Clarity drops even further. For those not wedded to a sedan, the Soul/e-Golf/Ionic/2018 LEAF all provide at least 110 miles of range and four or five seats for the same or less money as the Clarity.
no condition is permanent

GRA
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Re: Official Honda Clarity FCEV/BEV/PHEV thread

Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:47 pm

edatoakrun wrote:The clarity BEV is a relatively large sedan, reportedly having very nice appointments, many features and quality fit-and finish, and is available for very attractive lease terms, $700 down and 199/mo for a 36 month, 20k mile-per-year lease.

https://automobiles.honda.com/clarity-s ... &gclsrc=ds

I'm not at all surprised that some lessees have preferred it to a more expensive lease on a smaller LEAF/Golf/Soul/Ioniq hatch, with fewer features.

If 89 miles EPA range is enough for you, it is enough for you, which is the case for many drivers in the CA/OR coastal population centers, now that DC charge sites are ubiquitous.
Pretty much all of your comments also apply to the PHEV, which has the advantage of being anyone's sole car and which will still be usable a decade from now.

edatoakrun wrote:As to the Tesla 3, the lease+maintenance costs of the base model (if and when it ever becomes available) will probably be (post incentives) two to three times that of the Clarity.

The model 3 just will not competitive with the Clarity, or any of the other BEVs mentioned, in terms of cost.

Guess we'll see. Of course, the Clarity ought to be a lot less expensive, given it only has 40% of the range, will always be restricted to a commute/local car and pretty much requires that you also have a 2nd car, which isn't the case with the 200+ mile BEVs for many people. As long as you're not taking multi-day road trips but just weekend ones that require no more than a single QC each way, 200+ miles is fine.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

edatoakrun
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Re: Official Honda Clarity FCEV/BEV/PHEV thread

Fri Dec 08, 2017 7:18 am

GRA wrote:
edatoakrun wrote:The clarity BEV is a relatively large sedan, reportedly having very nice appointments, many features and quality fit-and finish, and is available for very attractive lease terms, $700 down and 199/mo for a 36 month, 20k mile-per-year lease.

https://automobiles.honda.com/clarity-s ... &gclsrc=ds

I'm not at all surprised that some lessees have preferred it to a more expensive lease on a smaller LEAF/Golf/Soul/Ioniq hatch, with fewer features.

If 89 miles EPA range is enough for you, it is enough for you, which is the case for many drivers in the CA/OR coastal population centers, now that DC charge sites are ubiquitous.
Pretty much all of your comments also apply to the PHEV, which has the advantage of being anyone's sole car and which will still be usable a decade from now...

A decade from now any passenger vehicle with less than ~20 kWh available battery capacity AND no DC charge port will likely be regarded as nearly useless.

Due to the high maintenance cost and inconvenience of petroleum fueled ICE's A decade from now, a range extender will only be of benefit to those vehicles with sufficient battery capacity to ensure it only rarely needs to be utilized.

The stagnation of Volt sales with the introduction of the Bolt is just the first indication of the PHEVs inability to compete with BEVs.

Once the mis-allocated federal tax credits terminate for PHEVs, whether next year or later, PHEV sales will quickly dwindle.
Last edited by edatoakrun on Fri Dec 08, 2017 7:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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GetOffYourGas
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Re: Official Honda Clarity FCEV/BEV/PHEV thread

Fri Dec 08, 2017 7:28 am

edatoakrun wrote: A decade from now any passenger vehicle with less than ~20 kWh available battery capacity AND no DC charge port will likely be regarded as nearly useless.

Due to the high maintenance cost and inconvenience of petroleum fueled ICE's A decade from now, a range extender will only be of benefit to those vehicles with sufficient battery capacity to ensure it only rarely needs to be utilized.

The collapse of Volt sales with the introduction of the Bolt is just the first indication of the PHEVs inability to compete with BEVs.


I'll have what he's having! :lol:
~Brian

EV Fleet:
2011 Torqeedo Travel 1003 electric outboard on a 22' sailboat
2012 Leaf SV (traded for Bolt)
2015 C-Max Energi (302A package)
2017 Bolt Premier

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Re: Official Honda Clarity FCEV/BEV/PHEV thread

Fri Dec 08, 2017 8:09 am

Push trailers are the future, just look at all the start up companies in that space. There should be many models available for the LEAF in the spring. :roll:

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Re: Official Honda Clarity FCEV/BEV/PHEV thread

Fri Dec 08, 2017 4:03 pm

edatoakrun wrote:
GRA wrote:
edatoakrun wrote:The clarity BEV is a relatively large sedan, reportedly having very nice appointments, many features and quality fit-and finish, and is available for very attractive lease terms, $700 down and 199/mo for a 36 month, 20k mile-per-year lease.

https://automobiles.honda.com/clarity-s ... &gclsrc=ds

I'm not at all surprised that some lessees have preferred it to a more expensive lease on a smaller LEAF/Golf/Soul/Ioniq hatch, with fewer features.

If 89 miles EPA range is enough for you, it is enough for you, which is the case for many drivers in the CA/OR coastal population centers, now that DC charge sites are ubiquitous.
Pretty much all of your comments also apply to the PHEV, which has the advantage of being anyone's sole car and which will still be usable a decade from now...

A decade from now any passenger vehicle with less than ~20 kWh available battery capacity AND no DC charge port will likely be regarded as nearly useless.

Due to the high maintenance cost and inconvenience of petroleum fueled ICE's A decade from now, a range extender will only be of benefit to those vehicles with sufficient battery capacity to ensure it only rarely needs to be utilized.

The stagnation of Volt sales with the introduction of the Bolt is just the first indication of the PHEVs inability to compete with BEVs.

Once the mis-allocated federal tax credits terminate for PHEVs, whether next year or later, PHEV sales will quickly dwindle.

The routine daily driving distance of over 80% of all U.S. drivers can be handled by the Clarity PHEV when new, and probably still more than 50% when a decade old; the car will still be completely usable by anyone, unlike the case of the Clarity BEV, so the long term value is much higher for the PHEV. You seem to be assuming a much faster transition away from fossil-fueled ICEs than is probable.

As to the stagnation of Volt sales, the Bolt's still the new kid on the block, and I expect lots of people are taking advantage of the fed. tax credits while they're still around. But if they go away, the value proposition of the two cars will shift in favor of the Volt. Then there are environmental and infrastructure factors which will also tilt preferences one way or the other, which for example is undoubtedly why the Volt continues to outsell the Bolt in Canada. The same thing may be happening in Norway:
In Norway, Plug-In Hybrids Set 4th Sales Record In A Row, Tesla Surges
https://insideevs.com/in-norway-plug-in-hybrids-set-4th-sales-record-in-a-row/
. . . In total, 5,813 new passenger plug-ins were registered last month (up 35.4% year-over-year), leading to an ultra-high 42.3% market share.

    BEVs 2,704 (up 5.5%, good for a 19.7% market share) + 1,128 ‘used’ plug-ins + 112 vans (85 new and 27 used) + 3 FCV
    PHEVs 3,109 (up 79.7%, good for 22.6% market share)

All-electric sales were just slightly higher than one year ago, but PHEVs surged by almost 80% to 3,109 and grabbed 22.6% market share.

The best selling PHEV model in November was the Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV (393) followed by new Volvo XC60 T8 (322). . . .

As for those all-electric sales and slight overall gains for the month, it was all Tesla’s doing. The best selling plug-in models last month were the Tesla Model S & Model X, as Tesla delivered 501 and 495, respectively – a new “non last month of the quarter” record for the company in the country

Of course, if PEVs continue to be bought mainly by enthusiasts as they are now, then BEVs may well make up the majority, but if that's the case they will remain a tiny fraction of overall sales.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

Foschas
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Re: Official Honda Clarity FCEV/BEV/PHEV thread

Sun Dec 10, 2017 3:00 pm

Drove a PHEV Clarity the other night. PHEV/BEV discussion aside the Clarity is a very well put together vehicle. Fit and finish far surpasses the leaf. Ride quality is very good. Road/engine noise is surprisingly low. The interior volume and appointments are amazing. I’ve test driven a Volt previously and would not consider the Volt compared to the Clarity. If your in the market for a PHEV give one a ride.

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Re: Official Honda Clarity FCEV/BEV/PHEV thread

Sun Dec 10, 2017 5:36 pm

Foschas wrote:Drove a PHEV Clarity the other night. PHEV/BEV discussion aside the Clarity is a very well put together vehicle. Fit and finish far surpasses the leaf. Ride quality is very good. Road/engine noise is surprisingly low. The interior volume and appointments are amazing. I’ve test driven a Volt previously and would not consider the Volt compared to the Clarity. If your in the market for a PHEV give one a ride.

Yes, the PHEV (looks aside, a problem with all Claritys) is a decent car. Given the choice, which version would you choose?
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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