GRA
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Re: Official Honda Clarity FCEV/BEV/PHEV thread

Fri Dec 15, 2017 5:49 pm

Brad Berman's of plugincars.com review of Clarity PHEV reviews:
First Drive of Honda Clarity Plug-in Hybrid: Spacious Interior But Awkward Design
http://plugincars.com/first-drive-honda-clarity-plug-hybrid-spacious-interior-awkward-design-133434.html
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

edatoakrun
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Re: Official Honda Clarity FCEV/BEV/PHEV thread

Mon Dec 18, 2017 6:23 am

To repeat, If 89 miles EPA range is enough for you, it is enough for you.

As with all vehicles, choosing a BEV requires you to make rational trade-offs.

Do you want a nice car, or one with thousands of dollars (and hundreds of pounds) of batteries you don't need, and are taking up useful space in your vehicle only as rapidly-depreciating ballast?

Why I find a viable driving future in 2018 Clarity BEV

While attending Honda’s recent Clarity PHEV press rollout in Napa, I had the opportunity to drive Honda’s premium Clarity battery electric vehicle. While the press pans Clarity BEV’s drive range, there’s something outstanding about this EV that none is talking about.

Setting the record straight, and there’s no arguing this point, Honda’s latest and largest stand alone battery electric vehicle has the lowest stated range of all new generation BEVs. So why lease one? On my last press trip for 2017 to Napa, California, I experienced two, 2018 BEVs, (battery electric vehicles) Honda Clarity, and the reinvented 2nd generation Nissan Leaf. While these cars are as different white and wheat bread, both are cutting edge when it comes to normalizing the electric car driving experience.

As Clarity brings a near full size sedan offering to the ever expanding BEV segment, Nissan Leaf opts for a reboot of its ever popular 5 door hatchback configuration. While Clarity BEV is march larger than Leaf, Leaf comes to market with a more powerful, quicker charging battery module, offering 150 + miles between charging, Clarity doesn’t!...

Clarity BEV is not designed for the long trip. With a stated 89 miles between charges, under ideal weather and road conditions, it would take a bit of charge management to cover many commuters daily work grind. However, for me, and the vast majority of Americans, less than 40 miles per day are traveled between work and home, easily done for Clarity. I can’t overstate the cabin comfort, quiet, standard featured active safety, and personal electronic connectivity integrated in Clarity BEV. I recommend a Clarity BEV test drive to anyone that can live with the 80+ mile charge range...

https://www.torquenews.com/1574/why-i-f ... larity-bev

edatoakrun wrote:The clarity BEV is a relatively large sedan, reportedly having very nice appointments, many features and quality fit-and finish, and is available for very attractive lease terms, $700 down and 199/mo for a 36 month, 20k mile-per-year lease.

https://automobiles.honda.com/clarity-s ... &gclsrc=ds

I'm not at all surprised that some lessees have preferred it to a more expensive lease on a smaller LEAF/Golf/Soul/Ioniq hatch, with fewer features.

If 89 miles EPA range is enough for you, it is enough for you, which is the case for many drivers in the CA/OR coastal population centers, now that DC charge sites are ubiquitous.

As to the Tesla 3, the lease+maintenance costs of the base model (if and when it ever becomes available) will probably be (post incentives) two to three times that of the Clarity.

The model 3 just will not competitive with the Clarity, or any of the other BEVs mentioned, in terms of cost.

GRA wrote:
GetOffYourGas wrote:I've been a BEV driver for almost 6 years, and I also don't understand. Please enlighten us, Ed.

My best guess would be a strong loyalty to either the brand or the sedan form factor. Those are the only things that make the Clarity different from the slew of 100+ mile BEVs selling for a similar price.

That's the only thing I can think of that sets it apart, but that doesn't require that I drive it. Once the regular range Model 3 arrives, a BEV sedan with ~ 2.5 times the range for not much more money, the value proposition of the Clarity drops even further. For those not wedded to a sedan, the Soul/e-Golf/Ionic/2018 LEAF all provide at least 110 miles of range and four or five seats for the same or less money as the Clarity.
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GRA
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Re: Official Honda Clarity FCEV/BEV/PHEV thread

Mon Dec 18, 2017 6:09 pm

edatoakrun wrote:To repeat, If 89 miles EPA range is enough for you, it is enough for you.

Of course. As we know from 7 years of experience, the number of people for whom sub-100 miles of range under ideal conditions when new is considered enough is a fraction of 1%.

edatoakrun wrote:As with all vehicles, choosing a BEV requires you to make rational trade-offs.

Do you want a nice car, or one with thousands of dollars (and hundreds of pounds) of batteries you don't need, and are taking up useful space in your vehicle only as rapidly-depreciating ballast?

As above. If most car buyers made purely rational decisions, we wouldn't be seeing 4WD SUVs being bought and used as single person commute cars in areas that never see snow. Of course, if you only intend to lease for a limited period of time and don't care about long-term viability, then it might make sense to get a car which can only handle your needs for that period of time. We have ample evidence that most people don't think that way.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

WetEV
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Re: Official Honda Clarity FCEV/BEV/PHEV thread

Mon Dec 18, 2017 7:36 pm

GRA wrote:Of course. As we know from 7 years of experience, the number of people for whom sub-100 miles of range under ideal conditions when new is considered enough is a fraction of 1%.


Really? Changes to the way people do things take time. Why do you think that 7 years is really long enough to get to the equilibrium fraction of people that will buy a sub-100 mile range BEV?
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GRA
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Re: Official Honda Clarity FCEV/BEV/PHEV thread

Mon Dec 18, 2017 7:52 pm

WetEV wrote:
GRA wrote:Of course. As we know from 7 years of experience, the number of people for whom sub-100 miles of range under ideal conditions when new is considered enough is a fraction of 1%.

Really? Changes to the way people do things take time. Why do you think that 7 years is really long enough to get to the equilibrium fraction of people that will buy a sub-100 mile range BEV?

What we know is that even most of the (tiny group of) people who were willing to buy sub-100 mile BEVs are stepping up to longer ranged ones now that they're available at comparable prices. Do you believe Nissan should be offering a lower-cost 24kWh 2018 LEAF because of the vast market that awaits it?

If the early adopters don't think they're acceptable, why would mainstream buyers who are used to 300+ miles be likely to find them so? Changes in attitudes may or may not take place, but that tends to be over decades even if voluntary.
Last edited by GRA on Tue Dec 19, 2017 5:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

LeftieBiker
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Re: Official Honda Clarity FCEV/BEV/PHEV thread

Mon Dec 18, 2017 8:05 pm

Part of the issue is that the early sub-100 mile BEVs were marketed as 100 mile BEVs, and a LOT of people got burned by finding that they had at most 75% as much range as they were told, and that was dropping annually. Now when an EV has a listed range of, say, 89 miles, any savvy EV driver will automatically subtract 25% from that, making the car even less appealing.
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edatoakrun
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Re: Official Honda Clarity FCEV/BEV/PHEV thread

Mon Dec 18, 2017 8:13 pm

GRA wrote:...What we know is that even most of the (tiny group of) people who were willing to buy sub-100 mile BEVs are stepping up to longer ranged ones now that they're available at comparable prices...

What YOU know is a twisted reality distorted by your petroleum addiction.

Long range between fuel stops is a cheap high only when the costs of the environmental damage it entails can be imposed on others.

In five or ten years batteries will be cheap and light enough that most people probably will want to pay for sixty (or more) kWh battery packs in their vehicles.

But today, the large majority of BEV buyers prefer better BEVs (and better infrastructure) at far lower financial and environmental costs, and they simply do not suffer from the range anxiety your addiction spawns.
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WetEV
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Re: Official Honda Clarity FCEV/BEV/PHEV thread

Mon Dec 18, 2017 8:28 pm

GRA wrote:What we know is that even most of the (tiny group of) people who were willing to buy sub-100 mile BEVs are stepping up to longer ranged ones now that they're available at comparable prices.


Based on what? The squeaky wheels at MNL?

GRA wrote:Do you believe Nissan should be offering a lower-cost 24kW 2018 LEAF because of the vast market that awaits it?


I suspect that there will be a market for lower cost BEVs. Exactly what battery size will be the equilibrium low end BEV isn't something that I have a clue about, of course. If you were being honest with yourself, you would say the same.
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edatoakrun
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Re: Official Honda Clarity FCEV/BEV/PHEV thread

Tue Dec 19, 2017 10:11 am

edatoakrun wrote:
GRA wrote:...What we know is that even most of the (tiny group of) people who were willing to buy sub-100 mile BEVs are stepping up to longer ranged ones now that they're available at comparable prices...

...In five or ten years batteries will be cheap and light enough that most people probably will want to pay for sixty (or more) kWh battery packs in their vehicles.

But today, the large majority of BEV buyers prefer better BEVs (and better infrastructure) at far lower financial and environmental costs, and they simply do not suffer from the range anxiety your addiction spawns.


I should add that there should still be a market for ~20 kWh BEVs, indefinitely, even in a world where the BEV market is centered on the ~60 kWh Family Truckster.

This is because they will be much cheaper and smaller (outside) than today's entry-level ICEVs, and government agencies and private companies will probably come to understand that since they make more efficient use of roads and parking places, they should receive preferential rates and tolls for these services.

And of course, a more-efficient ~20 kWh BEV in the future will should be able to cover ~200 miles in urban/suburban driving, and quickly charge at available DC stations on the few occasions when longer range is required
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GRA
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Re: Official Honda Clarity FCEV/BEV/PHEV thread

Tue Dec 19, 2017 5:41 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:Part of the issue is that the early sub-100 mile BEVs were marketed as 100 mile BEVs, and a LOT of people got burned by finding that they had at most 75% as much range as they were told, and that was dropping annually. Now when an EV has a listed range of, say, 89 miles, any savvy EV driver will automatically subtract 25% from that, making the car even less appealing.

Personally, I tell people to assume .6-.67 of EPA no worries when new, which allows for adverse conditions, HVAC use and a reserve. It's obviously possible for people to get more, depending on how much they're willing to adapt their behavior to the car, but for the typical mainstream driver who just wants to drive without thinking about it, that's a good place to start.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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