edatoakrun
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Nissan's e-Power range-extended Note BEV, for sale by 11/16 in Japan?

Sat Jun 25, 2016 8:39 am

9/8/16-thread title edited with new info.

Now that the announcement is official, and less than a year away from sale in Japan, I think its time for a thread dedicated to Nissan's e-Power range-extended BEV (BEVx).

I hope a the USA market introduction will not come much later.

Nissan's to-do list: Range, autonomy

2 new technologies part of push to be leader


Nissan Motor Co. will introduce two new technologies this year to move the needle on CEO Carlo Ghosn's goal of making Nissan a leader in electric vehicles and self-driving cars.

The first is a new range extender that Nissan says will tackle two of the biggest hurdles confronting electric vehicles: cost and limited range.

The other is the first deployment of Nissan's upcoming autonomous-drive technologies: a single-lane self-driving steering feature.

Both technologies will debut in Japan-market vehicles in the current fiscal year ending March 31, 2017. The company will subsequently introduce the autonomous-drive function in the U.S., Europe and China.

Nissan has not announced a plan for introducing the range extender to other markets...

"It will utilize a new e-Power system that matches the agility, quietness, strong acceleration and efficiency of the Nissan Leaf."

Its biggest difference from the Leaf will be the engine. When the proposed new car's battery runs low, a gasoline engine will kick in to recharge it, giving the car a longer range...

Toshiyuki Nakajima, a manager at Nissan's advanced vehicle engineering department, said the e-Power system has several advantages.

The system should be less expensive because its battery doesn't need to store as much power as a pure EV battery does, and so it can be smaller, he said...

Similarly, the engine doesn't need to be as big as on a traditional gasoline-powered car. The engine on the range-extender hybrid will serve only as a generator and can be tuned to continuously operate within it range of peak efficiency.

"We want to simplify the system," Nakajima said...

http://www.autonews.com/article/2016062 ... e-autonomy

Hopefully, the e-Power will be something close to what I asked for ~five years ago on the BEVx thread, a small ICE available for charge-while-you-drive use on longer trips.

But it looks like Nissan will show no more innovation about introducing an alternate hydrocarbon fuel than any other manufacture has, so I expect you will still have to gas-up your e-Power, once you drive beyond your battery + DC charge network range.

The “range–extended” EV (BEVx) considered

Thu Nov 17, 2011 8:50 am

...a true ICE ”range extender” for a BEV is not a bad Idea, It's just that current designs are all abysmal failures, from the point of energy efficiency and driver utility. Putting an ICE drivetrain in an EV, whether in series, parallel, or any other hybrid configuration, is not advisable, IMO. Invariably, you will get an overweight, overpriced, underperforming vehicle, like the Volt. It seems almost as ridiculous, to install an extremely expensive and heavy large battery pack (like the Tesla S long-range options) which is only occasionally required by the BEV driver.

A functional range extender would consist of:

A small displacement (200-600 CC) ICE generator, run at highest-efficiency rpm, to recharge the battery pack. Generator output would not be sufficient to drive the vehicle, just enough to extend the battery pack range to the next convenient recharge location.

It would not run on gasoline, but a less polluting, and more stable fuel, such as propane (easier refueling) or CNG (lower cost). 5 gallons of Propane, for example, would probably offer about 200 miles of range extension for a LEAF-sized BEV.

The fuel would also be available to a combustion cabin heater, the one use for which battery energy storage is particularly inefficient...

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=6847#p151224
Last edited by edatoakrun on Thu Sep 08, 2016 11:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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jjeff
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Re: Nissan's e-Power range-extended BEV, for sale by 3/31/17 in Japan

Sat Jun 25, 2016 10:02 am

I've always wondered why the Volt needed such a large ICE(1.5L+) 200-600cc should be well enough for just a generator, which I realize the ICE in a Volt is not. Only thing is where the heck they'd fit even a 2-600cc gas engine and required fuel tank. I mean IMO the Leaf barely has enough room now, it would have to be a vehicle with a larger footprint IMO. Also wondering why use the fuel to run the heater, I mean electric heat is fine and again if the battery gets low, run the generator to charge the battery. Having both a electric and gas heater again takes more room and adds to the overall complexity.
If Nissan goes this route I'd really want at least a 50?? mile EV only range(preferably more) and ability to run the car indefinitely on gas, not just to help charge the battery at a slower rate than would be removed by normal driving. Of course maybe then 200-600cc wouldn't be large enough......I don't know.
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Re: Nissan's e-Power range-extended BEV, for sale by 3/31/17 in Japan

Sat Jun 25, 2016 10:20 am

Hopefully they will put this on one of their larger vehicles like the Quest minivan. I need a people mover.

edatoakrun
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Re: Nissan's e-Power range-extended BEV, for sale by 3/31/17 in Japan

Sat Jun 25, 2016 10:31 am

DanCar wrote:Hopefully they will put this on one of their larger vehicles like the Quest minivan. I need a people mover.

Previous reports were that Nissan would first e-Power a compact SUV/CUV:

edatoakrun wrote:More on Nissan's BEVx plans reported below.

It's probably too much to hope that the report is wrong about it using petrol as fuel.

As I mentioned in MY OP four years ago, IMO gasoline is a poor choice for fueling a rang-extended BEV.

It's pathetic that the public is so convinced that gasoline is desirable, that no BEVx manufacturer may consider using a superior fuel.

Wacky Gripz concept (vaguely) previews Nissan's next compact SUV – and its range-extender tech

...As we reported last week, Nissan will unveil its first range-extending EV as early as 2016, but it won’t be the next LEAF, so unless it’s a dedicated new ‘green’ model, the JUKE EV could be revealed earlier than expected next year.

Effectively an electric vehicle incorporating an onboard engine to power the batteries but not drive the wheels, the ‘REV’ will combine the LEAF’s large-capacity electric motor with a small-capacity petrol engine that acts as a generator to charge the batteries when they run down...

http://www.motoring.com.au/nissan-to-to ... ke-100484/

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=6847&start=330
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Re: Nissan's e-Power range-extended BEV, for sale by 3/31/17 in Japan

Sat Jun 25, 2016 8:10 pm

"We want to simplify the system," Nakajima said...


We had to make a complicated BEVx to simplify the system !

Makes sense only in CUVs/MiniVans/SUVs now.
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Re: Nissan's e-Power range-extended BEV, for sale by 3/31/17 in Japan

Sat Jun 25, 2016 8:40 pm

So that it can maintain adequate performance under most-all conditions. The alternative is something liked the horribly hobbled i3 and its minuscule engine...

jjeff wrote:I've always wondered why the Volt needed such a large ICE(1.5L+) 200-600cc should be well enough for just a generator, which I realize the ICE in a Volt is not.
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Re: Nissan's e-Power range-extended BEV, for sale by 3/31/17 in Japan

Sat Jun 25, 2016 8:50 pm

The system should be less expensive because its battery doesn't need to store as much power as a pure EV battery does, and so it can be smaller, he said...


I'd say they've found a use for either the 24kwh or 30kwh packs, even after Leaf II debuts. Maybe even both.
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Re: Nissan's e-Power range-extended BEV, for sale by 3/31/17 in Japan

Sun Jun 26, 2016 9:32 am

TomT wrote:So that it can maintain adequate performance under most-all conditions. The alternative is something liked the horribly hobbled i3 and its minuscule engine...

jjeff wrote:I've always wondered why the Volt needed such a large ICE(1.5L+) 200-600cc should be well enough for just a generator, which I realize the ICE in a Volt is not.

Both the i-3 and the Volt share the essential design flaw, of over-sizing the on-board generator/charger to attempt to allow driving to continue after the battery is depleted.

Once you accept the design of a BEVx as using the ICE as a range-extender, and accept that battery depletion ends your trip until you recharge (using either a grid-connected charge site or your on-board charger) you are free to optimize its battery pack and generator size for actual driving needs, which IMO would be a twenty to thirty (accessible) kWh battery pack and a five to ten kW generator for most drivers of mid-sized passenger BEVs, and somewhat higher kWh pack capacity and/or kW output for those few drivers with atypically longer-range requirements.

Of course, larger and less efficient vehicles, like SUVs, vans, trucks, and buses, require larger packs, and/or higher kW generators, depending on their intended use.

LeftieBiker wrote:
The system should be less expensive because its battery doesn't need to store as much power as a pure EV battery does, and so it can be smaller, he said...


I'd say they've found a use for either the 24kwh or 30kwh packs, even after Leaf II debuts. Maybe even both.

If the LEAF 2 is available only with a 60 kWh battery pack, I expect it will probably be a failure for the same reason a Bolt or Tesla 3 likely will be.

Having a pack that large requires the BEV to be both heavy and expensive, compromising vehicle efficiency and increasing the total cost of ownership.

Such BEVs will not be competitive with ICE vehicles, unless massively subsidized by the government, or by manufactures willing to sell their BEVs at a loss.

That has been Tesla's and GM's strategy for their BEVs so far, but neither will likely be viable as BEVs move into the mass market, beyond their present status as compliance cars heavily subsidized by various government programs.
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Re: Nissan's e-Power range-extended BEV, for sale by 3/31/17 in Japan

Sun Jun 26, 2016 12:28 pm

edatoakrun wrote:Both the i-3 and the Volt share the essential design flaw, of over-sizing the on-board generator/charger to attempt to allow driving to continue after the battery is depleted.

Once you accept the design of a BEVx as using the ICE as a range-extender, and accept that battery depletion ends your trip until you recharge (using either a grid-connected charge site or your on-board charger) you are free to optimize its battery pack and generator size for actual driving needs, which IMO would be a twenty to thirty (accessible) kWh battery pack and a five to ten kW generator for most drivers of mid-sized passenger BEVs, and somewhat higher kWh pack capacity and/or kW output for those few drivers with atypically longer-range requirements.

No I don't accept that battery depletion ends your trip until you recharge. If there is an ICE onboard it needs to enable traveling further to get back home or finish your journey. You can't put life on hold and go and charge for hours at a 120V outlet.

% of people wanting a costly ICE just for a couple of miles of turtling extension is miniscule. That $5k can get you a much larger battery good for 80 or 100 extra miles.

If the LEAF 2 is available only with a 60 kWh battery pack, I expect it will probably be a failure for the same reason a Bolt or Tesla 3 likely will be.

LOL. If you think Tesla 3 will be a "failure" because of 60 kWh you obviously live in a different country. I can see this argument to hold some water in developing economies - not here.
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Re: Nissan's e-Power range-extended BEV, for sale by 3/31/17 in Japan

Sun Jun 26, 2016 12:47 pm

edatoakrun wrote:
TomT wrote:So that it can maintain adequate performance under most-all conditions. The alternative is something liked the horribly hobbled i3 and its minuscule engine...

jjeff wrote:I've always wondered why the Volt needed such a large ICE(1.5L+) 200-600cc should be well enough for just a generator, which I realize the ICE in a Volt is not.

Both the i-3 and the Volt share the essential design flaw, of over-sizing the on-board generator/charger to attempt to allow driving to continue after the battery is depleted.

Once you accept the design of a BEVx as using the ICE as a range-extender, and accept that battery depletion ends your trip until you recharge (using either a grid-connected charge site or your on-board charger) you are free to optimize its battery pack and generator size for actual driving needs, which IMO would be a twenty to thirty (accessible) kWh battery pack and a five to ten kW generator for most drivers of mid-sized passenger BEVs, and somewhat higher kWh pack capacity and/or kW output for those few drivers with atypically longer-range requirements.

Of course, larger and less efficient vehicles, like SUVs, vans, trucks, and buses, require larger packs, and/or higher kW generators, depending on their intended use.

LeftieBiker wrote:
The system should be less expensive because its battery doesn't need to store as much power as a pure EV battery does, and so it can be smaller, he said...


I'd say they've found a use for either the 24kwh or 30kwh packs, even after Leaf II debuts. Maybe even both.

If the LEAF 2 is available only with a 60 kWh battery pack, I expect it will probably be a failure for the same reason a Bolt or Tesla 3 likely will be.

Having a pack that large requires the BEV to be both heavy and expensive, compromising vehicle efficiency and increasing the total cost of ownership.

Such BEVs will not be competitive with ICE vehicles, unless massively subsidized by the government, or by manufactures willing to sell their BEVs at a loss.

That has been Tesla's and GM's strategy for their BEVs so far, but neither will likely be viable as BEVs move into the mass market, beyond their present status as compliance cars heavily subsidized by various government programs.

Thank goodness the manufacturers aren't listening to you! I don't want a small battery, or a range extender that limits range. Most drivers probably don't either.
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