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RegGuheert
Posts: 6287
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Leaf Number: 5926
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Re: AFV Truck/Commercial Vehicle and (non-BEV) Bus thread

Mon Mar 05, 2018 7:49 pm

Sorry, but BEV buses with enough capacity to function all day in cold whether in Cologne and Wuppertal Germany over 217-mile circuits are readily available to order today. Claiming otherwise is patently false.
RegGuheert
2011 Leaf SL Demo vehicle
10K miles: Apr 14, 2013, 20K miles (55.7Ah): Aug 7, 2014, 30K miles (52.0Ah): Dec 30, 2015, 40K miles (49.8Ah): Feb 8, 2017, 50K miles (47.2Ah): Dec 7, 2017.
Enphase Inverter Measured MTBF: M190, M215, M250, S280

GRA
Posts: 9093
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: AFV Truck/Commercial Vehicle and (non-BEV) Bus thread

Mon Mar 05, 2018 7:55 pm

RegGuheert wrote:Sorry, but BEV buses with enough capacity to function all day in cold whether in Cologne and Wuppertal Germany over 217-mile circuits are readily available to order today. Claiming otherwise is patently false.

They don't think so and it's their money, which is why I'd like to see the operational requirements and performance specs of whichever buses they looked at.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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RegGuheert
Posts: 6287
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2012 4:12 am
Delivery Date: 16 Mar 2012
Leaf Number: 5926
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Re: AFV Truck/Commercial Vehicle and (non-BEV) Bus thread

Mon Mar 05, 2018 8:02 pm

GRA wrote:
RegGuheert wrote:Sorry, but BEV buses with enough capacity to function all day in cold whether in Cologne and Wuppertal Germany over 217-mile circuits are readily available to order today. Claiming otherwise is patently false.
They don't think so and it's their money, which is why I'd like to see the operational requirements and performance specs of whichever buses they looked at.
It doesn't matter what they "think". The fact is that the 660-kWh Proterra bus can easily meet that range in their climate. In fact, that is exactly why a bus with such a large battery exists.

OTOH, I'm starting to think that Proterra may be limiting sales to the US right now. I'm not sure.
RegGuheert
2011 Leaf SL Demo vehicle
10K miles: Apr 14, 2013, 20K miles (55.7Ah): Aug 7, 2014, 30K miles (52.0Ah): Dec 30, 2015, 40K miles (49.8Ah): Feb 8, 2017, 50K miles (47.2Ah): Dec 7, 2017.
Enphase Inverter Measured MTBF: M190, M215, M250, S280

GRA
Posts: 9093
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: AFV Truck/Commercial Vehicle and (non-BEV) Bus thread

Mon Mar 05, 2018 8:08 pm

RegGuheert wrote:
GRA wrote:
RegGuheert wrote:Sorry, but BEV buses with enough capacity to function all day in cold whether in Cologne and Wuppertal Germany over 217-mile circuits are readily available to order today. Claiming otherwise is patently false.
They don't think so and it's their money, which is why I'd like to see the operational requirements and performance specs of whichever buses they looked at.
It doesn't matter what they "think". The fact is that the 660-kWh Proterra bus can easily meet that range in their climate. In fact, that is exactly why a bus with such a large battery exists.

OTOH, I'm starting to think that Proterra may be limiting sales to the US right now. I'm not sure.

Presumably they did more than just think, but looked at actual performance specs and their operating requirements. I repeat, I'd like to know what those requirements are, what buses they considered and rejected, and the costings. The only info we have as to their reasons is as given in the quote, that BEV buses couldn't meet the range requirement. Anything else is idle speculation at this point.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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RegGuheert
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Re: AFV Truck/Commercial Vehicle and (non-BEV) Bus thread

Mon Mar 05, 2018 9:08 pm

GRA wrote:The only info we have as to their reasons is as given in the quote, that BEV buses couldn't meet the range requirement. Anything else is idle speculation at this point.
Again, they are wrong. Their bias is showing.

Let's not propagate incorrect statements.
RegGuheert
2011 Leaf SL Demo vehicle
10K miles: Apr 14, 2013, 20K miles (55.7Ah): Aug 7, 2014, 30K miles (52.0Ah): Dec 30, 2015, 40K miles (49.8Ah): Feb 8, 2017, 50K miles (47.2Ah): Dec 7, 2017.
Enphase Inverter Measured MTBF: M190, M215, M250, S280

GRA
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Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: AFV Truck/Commercial Vehicle and (non-BEV) Bus thread

Tue Mar 06, 2018 5:39 pm

RegGuheert wrote:
GRA wrote:The only info we have as to their reasons is as given in the quote, that BEV buses couldn't meet the range requirement. Anything else is idle speculation at this point.
Again, they are wrong. Their bias is showing.

Let's not propagate incorrect statements.

Again, we don't know that they're wrong, because we lack almost all the info required to make that determination. What we have is your opinion that they're wrong, but unless things work far differently in Germany than here, multi-million dollar business decisions are more likely to be based on engineering and financial analysis by (in-house or outside) experts than the opinions of anonymous amateur posters on EV enthusiast forums, and no matter how emphatically such posters state their opinions, if they lack all the operational and infrastructure requirements and cost data to base that opinion on (not to mention, I presume, don't speak the language), their opinions are just speculation.

That you suspect they're wrong doesn't cut it, absent all of the above. I suspected that El Hierro couldn't meet its claims based on the limited info that was initially available to us, but I couldn't say so absolutely without far more detailed operational data and costs, which we later acquired. We need the similar access to info here, including which if any BEV bus providers proffered bids for the contract, what prices were offered etc. When we have all that info, then we can offer an informed opinion. All we have now is a single range point without any details.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
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Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
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Re: AFV Truck/Commercial Vehicle and (non-BEV) Bus thread

Tue Mar 06, 2018 6:23 pm

Via GCC:
Lightning Systems’ battery-electric Ford Transit on schedule for March deliveries; fuel cell range extender option
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2018/03/20180306-lightning.html

. . . Both the all-electric and the zero-emissions hydrogen fuel cell range extender are available for heavy-duty Transits with a 10,360-pound gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR). Ford’s vehicle warranty covers the base chassis for vehicles with the Lightning conversions. Installations and service are performed by Ford QVM upfitters and dealers around the world.

The all-electric Lightning product features a liquid-cooled Lithium-ion battery from a volume-ready world-class battery supplier that can be fast-charged in thirty-minutes on DC fast charging, and in six hours with Level 2 charging. Depending on battery option and drive cycle, LightningElectric has a payload capacity of up to 4,000 pounds. . . .

The LightningElectric fuel cell range extender uses hydrogen stored onboard in high-tech carbon fiber-wrapped pressure vessels equipped with sensors. The hydrogen will be delivered to the fuel cell system to generate electricity to charge a Lithium-Ion battery with up to 30 kW of power. In addition to the range of more than 200 miles, the vehicle will have a top speed of 75 mph, making it suited for applications in which long range and zero emissions are required. . . .

The BEV's available this month, the FC RE will be available in California (only) come September.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
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Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
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Re: AFV Truck/Commercial Vehicle and (non-BEV) Bus thread

Wed Mar 07, 2018 6:27 pm

Via GCC:
Efficient Drivetrains delivers six plug-in-hybrid, renewable-CNG armored trucks
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2018/03/20180307-edi.html

. . . The fleet of six 26,000 pound, Class-6 medium duty armored truck operates with the same expected OEM performance while reducing emissions by up to 99.9% in certain duty cycles.

Fleet end user Sectran Security armored vehicles make frequent stops as part of their highly congested city routes in Southern California. At each stop, engines are kept idling for security purposes, but now risk violating California’s strict diesel idling regulations, which prohibit idling the engine for more than five minutes.

With the modernized PHEV trucks, engine idling is eliminated entirely, by operating in all-electric mode during stop-and-go operations, and in hybrid mode using renewable natural gas (RNG) during highway operations. By deploying the full fleet of six, the vehicles enable Sectran to reduce annual diesel consumption by 31,000+ gallons, significantly reducing annual fuel costs, and emissions by up to 99.9%. . . .

The EDI PowerDrive 6000 has been durability tested over 3.8 million miles in a commercial fleet setting of city buses, and has been deployed across major North American OEMs including International, Freightliner, and Peterbilt platforms.

The vehicle program is a collaboration between Efficient Drivetrains and North American Repower, and includes funding from the California Energy Commission, which approved a $3-million grant award from its Energy Research and Development Division.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
Posts: 9093
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: AFV Truck/Commercial Vehicle and (non-BEV) Bus thread

Sat Mar 10, 2018 4:17 pm

Via GCC:
Redding running 17 Scania biogas buses on busiest route
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2018/03/20180-309-redding.html
In the UK, Reading Buses has placed 17 new high-end Scania double decker biogas buses into operation. The buses, with bodywork by Alexander Dennis, service Reading’s busiest bus route, the Purple 17. . . .

The Low Emission Bus Certificate, based on testing at Millbrook, puts the well-to-wheel GHG emissions of the double-decker biogas bus at 207.9 g CO2e/km, compared to 1290.1 g CO2e/km for a Euro V diesel equivalent. . . .
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
Posts: 9093
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: AFV Truck/Commercial Vehicle and (non-BEV) Bus thread

Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:04 pm

Via GCR:
UPS says 50 Workhorse plug-in hybrid trucks cost no more than regular delivery vans
https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1115722_ups-says-50-workhorse-plug-in-hybrid-trucks-cost-no-more-than-regular-vehicles

In a press release issued in late February, UPS said the 50 plug-in electric delivery trucks it will deploy "will be comparable in acquisition cost to conventional-fueled trucks without any subsidies."

That achievement is, it said, "an industry first that [breaks] a key barrier to large-scale fleet adoption."

Indeed, it is the high cost of lithium-ion battery packs to provide adequate range in large, heavy delivery trucks that has proven to be the hurdle to wider adoption thus far. . . .

The startup truck company said the cab-forward Class 5 delivery trucks it provides to UPS will travel roughly 100 miles between battery recharges, which UPS expect to do overnight at its depots.

Neither UPS nor Workhorse provided specifications or images of the vans to be acquired, however—so readers should note the images in this article are of different types of delivery vans. . . .

Something seems to be off here. Why would you need 100 miles AER in a PHEV used for local P&D? Half that would seem to be plenty, if you're going to use an ICE to get you to the delivery area and back. We'll need to wait for clarification.

I can see wanting that much range total, like this GCR article from last May:
UPS electric van with fuel-cell range extender to be tested in California
https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1110240_ups-electric-van-with-fuel-cell-range-extender-to-be-tested-in-california

That provides 125 miles total, including a 45kWh battery pack and a 32 kW fuel cell stack with 10 kg. of H2.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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