Fisker 400-mile EV based on graphene supercapacitors

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RegGuheert

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It seems Fisker is intent on building a new EV based on graphene supercapacitors instead of batteries. They have released the first teaser image of the new car:

fisker-teaser.png


Since the most interesting piece of this announcement is the claimed breakthrough in graphene supercapacitors, perhaps we can discuss that in this thread, as well.

Here is an article on this claimed new breakthrough storage technology. From the article:
Business Insider said:
"Graphene shows a higher electron mobility, meaning that electrons can move faster through it. This will, e.g. charge a battery much faster," Lucia Gauchia, an assistant professor of mechanical engineering and energy storage systems at Michigan Technological University, told Business Insider. "Graphene is also lighter and it can present a higher active surface, so that more charge can be stored."
Business Insider said:
"The reason we are not using it yet, even though the material is not a new one, is that there is no mass production for it yet that can show reasonable cost and scalability," Gauchia explained.

But Fisker told Business Insider that his battery division, Fisker Nanotech, was patenting a machine that he said could produce as much as 1,000 kilograms of graphene at a cost of just 10 cents a kilogram.
The key technologist behind this claimed breakthrough is Jack Kavanaugh:
Business Insider said:
Kavanaugh hails from Nanotech Energy, a research group composed of UCLA researchers who specialize in the graphene supercapacitor Fisker plans to use in his car.
Business Insider said:
"The challenge with using graphene in a supercapacitor in the past has been that you don't have the same density and ability to store as much energy," Kavanaugh said. "Well we have solved that issue with technology we are working on."
 
When do deliveries start? :lol:

People serious about delivering new EV technology would do themselves a favor to not become distracted with exotic doors.
 
Ah, I remember FireFly Energy, A123 Batteries, and other failed battery companies that had something awesome in the lab... If it's still in the lab, it means they haven't got it to production yet. That means 5+ years out if things are going right. I wish it would happen, but it won't. Too much vaporware floating around.
 
Firefly batteries are off the shelf , their not cheap but very reliable and easy to purchase.

I would equate this gaff more in line with eestor remember that place?
 
rmay635703 said:
Firefly batteries are off the shelf , their not cheap but very reliable and easy to purchase.

I would equate this gaff more in line with eestor remember that place?


Any day now... http://www.eestorcorp.com/index.html

but they lost their biggest fan... http://bariumtitanate.blogspot.com/
 
palmermd said:
rmay635703 said:
Firefly batteries are off the shelf , their not cheap but very reliable and easy to purchase.

I would equate this gaff more in line with eestor remember that place?
Any day now... http://www.eestorcorp.com/index.html

but they lost their biggest fan... http://bariumtitanate.blogspot.com/
EEStor is the first thing I thought of, but it seems this is a bit different. From the Business Insider article:
Business Insider said:
"This particular technology that we're working on and are using for Fisker Nanotech is a hybrid," Kavanaugh told Business Insider. "We have been able to take the best of what supercapacitors can do and the best of what batteries can do and are calling it a super battery."
No doubt this will take years to come to market, even if it hits no snags.
 
This isn't really new technology, but a new fabrication method for the technology. So they could build a car for testing and such using the old and super expensive method. You can make graphene based supercaps for about $15/kg today down from $100-$200/kg just a few years ago. They are talking about $0.10/kg, two orders of magnitude in cost reduction which would be huge. But the underlying thing that pops out the other side of the machine is the same.

28Wh/kg for these graphene super caps, 140Wh/kg to 156Wh/kg in the Tesla S/X lithiums. For 400 miles of range, it would be 5.57x larger for the same size battery and another 1.5x that of the 265mi Tesla for a total of 8.3x ish larger. It starts looking more like a small flatbed towtruck with a cabin than a slim sporty car...
 
2k1Toaster said:
28Wh/kg for these graphene super caps, 140Wh/kg to 156Wh/kg in the Tesla S/X lithiums. For 400 miles of range, it would be 5.57x larger for the same size battery and another 1.5x that of the 265mi Tesla for a total of 8.3x ish larger. It starts looking more like a small flatbed towtruck with a cabin than a slim sporty car...
That would be a bit silly, wouldn't it? But that's not what the article says:
Business Insider said:
"The challenge with using graphene in a supercapacitor in the past has been that you don't have the same density and ability to store as much energy," Kavanaugh said. "Well we have solved that issue with technology we are working on."
In other words, they are not talking about the same technology that you are talking about.
 
Fisker Nanotech is not the only organization making claims of this sort. A research team in Korea is making almost identical claims:
Kang’s research team has developed a porous nanotube that has fine mesoporous channels for positive and negative ions, and combined it with the different energy storage mechanisms of lithium-ion batteries and supercapacitors. The new hybrid energy storage technology has 275Wh/kg energy density, which is 1.5 times that of the lithium ion battery, and 23kW/kg charging and output property, which is 100 times higher than that of the lithium ion battery.
 
Shouldn't this be in the "All Future Battery Technology"? thread. Seems to fit very nicely:

"This thread is for all PR releases, articles and other sources of info on future battery and energy tech that is not commercially available today."
 
There are quite a few articles about similar approaches to energy storage. My current understanding is that the electrolyte is replaced by some other material which allows for much higher conductivity. Here is a recent announcement about a development by Toyota:
Android Central said:
Toyota researchers have discovered a way to remove the liquid electrolyte component of lithium ion batteries to create a far more stable power source that complete an entire charge/discharge cycle in less than seven minutes. The prototype has the same energy density as traditional lithium-ion batteries, but it can remain functional at a much wider temperature range. The battery still functions all the way down to -30 degrees Celsius, and when it nears 100 degrees Celsius, its discharge rate is comparable to a supercapacitor.
Here is an image showing the structure of one of the materials being used:

Screen-Shot-2016-03-21-at-4.05.19-PM-640x278.png
 
This article contains detailed conjecture about what Fisker might be up to with their new Li-ion Capacitor (LIC) technology, including how they might intend to manufacture this new technlogy:
Rud Istvan said:
The credibility question requires untangling a fascinating technology development web that leads to a new LIC technology. The patent application for Fisker’s PR’d low cost graphene ‘machine’ is not yet published (but when it does, it surely won’t be the linked MIT CVD approach that has already failed with vertically aligned carbon nanotubes—more below). The related predecessor graphene/MnO2 hybrid device providing the necessary Fisker clues just published as US20160148759. It provides very informative clues, but is of no direct vehicle significance because only a 2 volt system.

In what follows we deduce what Fisker is up to. There are several demonstrated subparts, producing a combined plausible breakthrough. Each is another self-contained energy storage R&D mini-saga.
 
rmay635703 said:
Firefly batteries are off the shelf , their not cheap but very reliable and easy to purchase.

I would equate this gaff more in line with eestor remember that place?

Oh! :eek: I didn't realize FireFly Energy had survived. Last I looked at them 3 or 4 years ago, they were undergoing some form of restructuring. Well, that's good news, at least on the lead-acid side.
 
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