Toyota succumbing to reality it's going to be EVs not FCVs

My Nissan Leaf Forum

Help Support My Nissan Leaf Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

LTLFTcomposite

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 23, 2010
Messages
4,780
Location
Central FL
Toyota's strategy may have been wrongheaded, but their position in the automotive market and the weight that carries should not be taken lightly in considering the significance of this shift in thinking.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/toyota-sharpen-focus-electric-cars-house-unit-080701081--sector.html
 
I'm glad they finally woke the flip up. We need more BEV competition from the large top 6 automotive manufacturers. I LOVE Tesla, but until lots of electrics are out there in dealership lots available for test driving, they won't become mainstream enough to get real market penetration. Unfortunately so far, the big 6 have always crippled their BEV offerings in order to prevent them cannibalizing the profit center luxury market. It's easy to make a $40k electric outperform a $60k luxury car on the 0-60, and that's not something they want to do. (Or in the case of Tesla, a $120k car outperforming $1mil cars.)
 
More signs of a shift in thinking

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/toyota-chief-shifts-gear-boost-electric-vehicle-division-101917635--sector.html

"By putting the president and vice presidents in charge of the department, we plan to speed up development of electric cars," said Toyota spokeswoman Kayo Doi, following a personnel change announcement by the company.

"The president will directly oversee the department's operations to enable decisions to be made quickly and nimbly."

You know they're serious when the president and vice presidents have taken over. Who's up for some daily status reports? :D
 
Durandal said:
Unfortunately so far, the big 6 have always crippled their BEV offerings in order to prevent them cannibalizing the profit center luxury market. It's easy to make a $40k electric outperform a $60k luxury car on the 0-60, and that's not something they want to do. (Or in the case of Tesla, a $120k car outperforming $1mil cars.)

This line of thinking seems self-contradictory to me. Can that $40k electric be as profitable as the $60k luxury car? If not, why not simply increase the price to make it as profitable and let the market decide? Is there something else that the luxury car offers which the electric does not (i.e. luxury? - The Bolt, for example, is hardly luxurious inside from what I hear).

This is where, IMHO, Tesla got it right. They set out to build the best car they could in its class, which happens to be electric. At first, batteries were expensive. That means the car will be expensive. So they built a car worthy of a $120k price tag (if not more). As they can come down market, they do.

By contrast, the "big 6" are building an EV to a price point. If you build and sell a car for less than $40k, and want to make a profit, you will have to make some sacrifices. To date, that has been largely with the battery itself. As a result, we have small battery, short-range EVs today. They are less desirable than an equivalent $40k gas car as a result. Still, I am glad they built them. I am still driving and enjoying my $35k MSRP 2012 Leaf, which I got for $23k after rebates and incentives.
 
GetOffYourGas said:
This line of thinking seems self-contradictory to me. Can that $40k electric be as profitable as the $60k luxury car? If not, why not simply increase the price to make it as profitable and let the market decide? Is there something else that the luxury car offers which the electric does not (i.e. luxury? - The Bolt, for example, is hardly luxurious inside from what I hear).

This is where, IMHO, Tesla got it right. They set out to build the best car they could in its class, which happens to be electric. At first, batteries were expensive. That means the car will be expensive. So they built a car worthy of a $120k price tag (if not more). As they can come down market, they do.

By contrast, the "big 6" are building an EV to a price point. If you build and sell a car for less than $40k, and want to make a profit, you will have to make some sacrifices. To date, that has been largely with the battery itself. As a result, we have small battery, short-range EVs today. They are less desirable than an equivalent $40k gas car as a result. Still, I am glad they built them. I am still driving and enjoying my $35k MSRP 2012 Leaf, which I got for $23k after rebates and incentives.

I completely agree with you. They should have an all-electric Camero or Charger, or whatever performance car, and an all-electric luxury vehicle as well. From what I understand, the Cadillac ELR was essentially a Chevy Volt with the luxury features of a Cadillac but it was discontinued.
 
This marks the beginning of the end of the fuel cell stupidity. Another year or so and you won't hear anything more about them and they plans to construct a network of stations will be quietly scrapped.

The money will still be gone though.
 
^^^ +1
It always kind of ticked me off that Toyota(the founder of the most successful high MPG hybrid) kept wasting time and money on FCVs and not BEVs! Now it sounds like they are finally going to get serious on a PHEV(one with at least a little bit of EV range, Prius Prime) but what would be such rocket science about producing a a BEV Prius :? and not just for a compliance vehicle but for all 50 states!
We've had a Prius since '06 and love it, would have loved a Toyota BEV but was forced to go to Nissan as Toyota couldn't offer us what we wanted :idea:
 
toyota lost me 3 years ago after 10 years of COMPLETE satisfaction in TWO Prii. Went to Nissan instead. Will go to Tesla soon. Can Toyota compete is a big if. Thanks to Tesla for showing these companies the way. And to a smaller extent, thanks Nissan. I do love my Leaf. Just need it to do more. You know, like a Tesla.

No Supercharger Network? no sale. (this is the biggest)
Still got a dealership sales/service model? no sale.
No over the air software updates? no sale.
Your 'EV' have a tailpipe? no sale. (if it can burn gas and has an oil change interval, it ain't a BEV)
Still airing anti-EV commercials? no sale.

And I'm just getting started with this list.

Show me the car and I'll let you know how serious toyota is about their EV future.
 
That's a pretty strict list, finman.

Supercharger network? Well, that's Tesla's proprietary name, so noone else will have one. But maybe in the not-so-distant future a DCQC network will be robust enough to suit your needs.

Dealership sales/service model? Nobody but Tesla is going to get away from that model within the next decade even if they wanted to.

So it looks like it's Tesla or bust for you.

For me, I'm not so vindictive against any company that I wouldn't buy their product. I will but the EV that best suites my needs and tastes. Yes, that potentially includes Toyota. Or VW (despite the diesel nonsense). Or Chevy. Or Tesla.
 
GetOffYourGas said:
That's a pretty strict list, finman.
Very true. While I'd like to have such high ideals in the end I'll probably end up purchasing my next EV from the first company that produces a vehicle to suit my needs(larger vehicle all around than the Leaf). Currently it's looking like it's going to be the new Chrysler Pacifica PHEV. Sure I'd rather it be a EV only(like the Nissan eNV-200 that may never be available in the US) sure I'd like it to have a 200 mile range like a Bolt(heck I'd be happy with 100) sure I'd like it to be from really any other mfg. other than Chrysler but hey, I can't keep waiting forever, at some point one has to get whatever is available, the lesser of evils. Now at some point within the next couple years when our '07 Prius starts to cost more than it's worth we'll probably seriously look at the Prius Prime, sure I'd like it to have more range than it will currently have but again you just have to pick the lesser of evils or what best suites your needs at the time, waiting for the ideal vehicle will simply be an exercise in futility, well unless your into that :)
 
LTLFTcomposite said:
This marks the beginning of the end of the fuel cell stupidity. Another year or so and you won't hear anything more about them and they plans to construct a network of stations will be quietly scrapped.

The money will still be gone though.

Hardly! You read more into Toyota's short term strategy decision.
 
I've been saying this since this before forum was started. Anyone that thinks Toyota ever got out of the EV game shows again how Toyota's smoke and mirrors on all this has worked very well on consumers (at a small cost) and possibly on some auto makers for some time. Toyota will build and develop anything they think will make them a profit and when they decide it is best for them, not because the are anti-EV, etc. They also will take any free R&D money for alternative fuels as well and they would be foolish not to do so. Toyota has a vested interest in traction pack tech at every level and all the related benefits for any platform they implement these technologies. As a leader and innovator in this space Toyota will play the game to build an EV when it males sense for them, does anyone think they have not had constant EV development for many years and continue to do so at every level? Don't be fooled by the propaganda they are not led by fools and they sure tricked the industry with the release of the Prius. The RAV4 G2 was a perfect example of masterful PR manipulation, as if Toyota needed Tesla to build that EV! So many in the press and elsewhere gobbled up this nonsense. This is all a pure stop-gap measure and way to stall based on their timelines and interests. This is playing out just as planned.....
 
Maybe, but I think it more likely that they have an anti-EV, pro-hybrid internal policy. Not everything that Toyota does is Brilliant. They ruined the Camry's reliability and reputation by cost cutting, for example.
 
They have been developing EVs for a long time. Other auto makers you would not expect have full EV variants of popular models which were done before anyone even knew about the LEAF. I've been at meetings with board level executives of a top German auto maker and I can tell you they all had irons in the fire much earlier than anyone would expect. These Evs still remain unknown and are sold in the form of conversions on other platforms in their lines Of course Toyota focuses on their core business and when they decide to launch an EV they will, they don't have the same learning curve as they did this a long time ago. Let's not forget the who built the original RAV4, compliance car or not it was a Toyota product.

Look at the history of Toyota's moves and read between the lines, the answers are all pretty clear. They are not succumbing to any reality they are playing their hand they way they see fit, good or bad.
 
I don't assume that Toyota has little or no EV experience. I also don't assume that they are Gods, playing long games that we can't even begin to comprehend. ;-)
 
EVERYONE has a wide margin to catch Tesla. Good on anyone to do so, as THAT is what the Elon Master Plan is all about.

Sorry, though, that Toyota lost me forever with FCV crap. I can't see them as serious about an EV future...yet. And they HAD a chance to at least have something Tesla-like with the running gear of the 2nd gen RAV 4 EV. :oops:

Tesla has made a very high bar to compete. 2020 Toyota EV? Well, that just means A LOT of Model 3s will be running around. Just saying.
 
Big advantage Tesla has is a proven battery. I am not going to go first with a Toyota and chance that they put in a lousy battery like Nissan. Would take five to eight years of good reviews. Same goes for Honda that seemed to have trouble with batteries in their hybrid. Or anyone else for that matter.
 
finman100 said:
Tesla has made a very high bar to compete.

Really? Please explain where. Other than with the SCs, Tesla has NO significant "rent" nor established a barrier to entry
for any major automotive OEM. In the case of Toyota, they've had all the needed technology to easily produce a BEV and
platforms, e.g. the Prius - remove the ICE/complicated EV motor drive, to enter the BEV market when the volume
and price structure becomes truly profitable. Furthermore, most of Tesla's systems (ECUs) are off-the-shelf used
by many OEMs and key systems are out-sourced, e.g. display/autopilot A.I. processor - Nvidia.
 
Back
Top