Tesla Model S battery packs question

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jlsoaz

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Hi - on the one hand this question must have been answered numerous times over the years. On the other hand, coming back to it, I can't quite seem to find the answer in my memory or online.

The question is this - when Tesla issues different kWh model S's, is the battery pack the same high-end kWh in each case, but with some way of restricting the kWh for lower kWh models? Or is the battery pack physically different for lower kWh models? That is, for a 60 kWh variant some years ago, were you actually buying an 85 kWh pack that was restricted in some way? If so, does that mean that the pack technically might last a very long time because it had some conservative banding on how much it could be charged?

My initial guess at the answer is that I have not heard of people readily upgrading from 60 to 85 kWh and so this to me means maybe the pack is different. I will take a look also at curb weights, but am wondering if anyone really just knows the answer hopefully with some guidance as to their source (not to get too bogged down in that, but, for example, if you read it somewhere in another forum, I just want to get an idea of where the information comes from).

Opinions my own.
 
jlsoaz said:
Hi - on the one hand this question must have been answered numerous times over the years. On the other hand, coming back to it, I can't quite seem to find the answer in my memory or online.

The question is this - when Tesla issues different kWh model S's, is the battery pack the same high-end kWh in each case, but with some way of restricting the kWh for lower kWh models? Or is the battery pack physically different for lower kWh models? That is, for a 60 kWh variant some years ago, were you actually buying an 85 kWh pack that was restricted in some way? If so, does that mean that the pack technically might last a very long time because it had some conservative banding on how much it could be charged?

My initial guess at the answer is that I have not heard of people readily upgrading from 60 to 85 kWh and so this to me means maybe the pack is different. I will take a look also at curb weights, but am wondering if anyone really just knows the answer hopefully with some guidance as to their source (not to get too bogged down in that, but, for example, if you read it somewhere in another forum, I just want to get an idea of where the information comes from).

Opinions my own.
Click to expand...

Mainly different packs, but there is some software limited packs.

For example, Tesla originally had 60kWh and 85kWh packs. Different number of cells in each.
As Tesla increases the pack sizes, they have, in some cases, offered smaller packs that are software limited versions of larger pack sizes.
In particular, they increased the small pack to 75kWh. You could still buy a 60kWh pack, but they no longer made a 60kWh pack.
So they put a 75kWh pack in and software limited it to 60kWh.

This info comes From Tesla itself. https://www.tesla.com/models/design
 
Zythryn said:
So they put a 75kWh pack in and software limited it to 60kWh.
Click to expand...
Then unlocking the other 15kwh is offered as an upgrade, for $10k?
Any word on when the model S will switch over to 2170 cells? They are still 18650 currently?
 
LTLFTcomposite said:
Zythryn said:
So they put a 75kWh pack in and software limited it to 60kWh.
Click to expand...
Then unlocking the other 15kwh is offered as an upgrade, for $10k?
Any word on when the model S will switch over to 2170 cells? They are still 18650 currently?
Click to expand...

I'm not sure what the upgrade cost is, could be.
The nice aspect is even if you don't upgrade, a 60kWh pack uses a lower SOC since it is software limited.

I haven't heard about the switch to the 2170 cells. I would figure they eventually year simply for manufacturing efficiencies.
But it may not happen until they redesign the battery pack for the S/X.

I honestly haven't followed it all that closely as my next car will be a Model 3.
 
Zythryn said:
jlsoaz said:
Hi - on the one hand this question must have been answered numerous times over the years. On the other hand, coming back to it, I can't quite seem to find the answer in my memory or online.

The question is this - when Tesla issues different kWh model S's, is the battery pack the same high-end kWh in each case, but with some way of restricting the kWh for lower kWh models? Or is the battery pack physically different for lower kWh models? That is, for a 60 kWh variant some years ago, were you actually buying an 85 kWh pack that was restricted in some way? If so, does that mean that the pack technically might last a very long time because it had some conservative banding on how much it could be charged?

My initial guess at the answer is that I have not heard of people readily upgrading from 60 to 85 kWh and so this to me means maybe the pack is different. I will take a look also at curb weights, but am wondering if anyone really just knows the answer hopefully with some guidance as to their source (not to get too bogged down in that, but, for example, if you read it somewhere in another forum, I just want to get an idea of where the information comes from).

Opinions my own.
Click to expand...

Mainly different packs, but there is some software limited packs.

For example, Tesla originally had 60kWh and 85kWh packs. Different number of cells in each.
As Tesla increases the pack sizes, they have, in some cases, offered smaller packs that are software limited versions of larger pack sizes.
In particular, they increased the small pack to 75kWh. You could still buy a 60kWh pack, but they no longer made a 60kWh pack.
So they put a 75kWh pack in and software limited it to 60kWh.

This info comes From Tesla itself. https://www.tesla.com/models/design
Click to expand...

Thanks, this answers part of my question and makes some sense, as I think the math on software limiting 75 kWh to 60 kWh sort of makes sense (it's a 15 kWh boost and probably would hit some sweet spot for some customers in that price neighborhood so if x% of them go for the upgrade, it becomes worth it, I guess). I also see some discussion of this on wikipedia.

Where I'm still a bit lost is going back a few years to 2012-2014 time period. What did they have ... just the 60 and 85 kWh variants? Were any of the 60 kWh variants software limited, do we know? I'm thinking no, but am trying to verify.
 
jlsoaz said:
Thanks, this answers part of my question and makes some sense, as I think the math on software limiting 75 kWh to 60 kWh sort of makes sense (it's a 15 kWh boost and probably would hit some sweet spot for some customers in that price neighborhood so if x% of them go for the upgrade, it becomes worth it, I guess). I also see some discussion of this on wikipedia.

Where I'm still a bit lost is going back a few years to 2012-2014 time period. What did they have ... just the 60 and 85 kWh variants? Were any of the 60 kWh variants software limited, do we know? I'm thinking no, but am trying to verify.
Click to expand...

Originally Tesla offered an 85, 60 and 40kWh packs.
The 85 and 60 were distinctly different with different numbers of cells.
The 40 was discontinued early and any 40kWh packs were actually 60kWh packs that were software limited.

Tesla is still production constrained, so limiting the number of physically different sizes of battery packs improves efficiency.
That, in and of itself, is of value to Tesla.
Add to that your point and it seems to make a lot of sense.

None of the 60s until last year were software limited.
If you want something more official than that, you should contact Tesla corporate and get the word straight from the horses mouth :)
 
One software limitation from the 2013-2014 Tesla era you may be thinking of is Supercharging. It was an included SW & HW feature of the 85kWh packs. On the 60's, Supercharging could be enabled before/after purchase since the HW was there. I think the cost was around $2k for Tesla to turn it on.
 
Something of note, I'm sure a lot of the Tesla cars out there that are not being upgraded to 75kWh from 60kWh, or 60kWh from 40kWh are leased. At the end of the lease, the car goes back to Tesla, in which case they can easily perform the software upgrade on the car to sell it as a 75, etc as part of their CPO program, which helps them recoup the cost on any of those cars that were not upgraded by the customer. Same with AP1 that wasn't purchased but had the HW installed.
 
DougWantsALeaf said:
Does anyone know of any 40kWh packs still out in the wild? I can't imagine there are many left that Tesla hasn't pulled back in for upgrade or early death.
Click to expand...
Those would be 60 kWh packs, software limited to 40.

There's also the small set of gen 2 Rav4 EV's all of which had ~40 kWh packs, likely different than one you'd find in any S.
 
DougWantsALeaf said:
Does anyone know of any 40kWh packs still out in the wild? I can't imagine there are many left that Tesla hasn't pulled back in for upgrade or early death.
Click to expand...

I see them for sale once in awhile on the usual used sites, or at least, it will say that.

It's not clear to me if the upgrade to 60 was hardware or software. Perhaps it just required someone to pay money and have a portion of the battery "unlocked". Maybe you or someone else knows with confidence.
 
jlsoaz said:
DougWantsALeaf said:
Does anyone know of any 40kWh packs still out in the wild? I can't imagine there are many left that Tesla hasn't pulled back in for upgrade or early death.
Click to expand...

I see them for sale once in awhile on the usual used sites, or at least, it will say that.

It's not clear to me if the upgrade to 60 was hardware or software. Perhaps it just required someone to pay money and have a portion of the battery "unlocked". Maybe you or someone else knows with confidence.
Click to expand...
https://www.engadget.com/2013-04-01-tesla-model-s-axes-40kwh-battery-option.html
https://insideevs.com/news/317463/entry-level-40kwh-tesla-model-s-cancelled-60-kwh-cars-all-get-supercharging-hardware/
https://web.archive.org/web/20130404075206/http://www.teslamotors.com/about/press/releases/tesla-model-s-sales-exceed-target

Yes. I recall seeing some folks on TMC paying to get that extra capacity unlocked.
 
cwerdna said:
jlsoaz said:
DougWantsALeaf said:
Does anyone know of any 40kWh packs still out in the wild? I can't imagine there are many left that Tesla hasn't pulled back in for upgrade or early death.
Click to expand...

I see them for sale once in awhile on the usual used sites, or at least, it will say that.

It's not clear to me if the upgrade to 60 was hardware or software. Perhaps it just required someone to pay money and have a portion of the battery "unlocked". Maybe you or someone else knows with confidence.
Click to expand...
https://www.engadget.com/2013-04-01-tesla-model-s-axes-40kwh-battery-option.html
https://insideevs.com/news/317463/entry-level-40kwh-tesla-model-s-cancelled-60-kwh-cars-all-get-supercharging-hardware/
https://web.archive.org/web/20130404075206/http://www.teslamotors.com/about/press/releases/tesla-model-s-sales-exceed-target

Yes. I recall seeing some folks on TMC paying to get that extra capacity unlocked.
Click to expand...

In those cases, it could perhaps be counted as an interesting experiment because it is an older LiB that has had a lot of the battery reserved and I guess unused for a long time. So, one might buy a 40 kWh Tesla, and pay to unlock it, speculating that one could be getting a 60 kWh battery in some decent condition (though there's the wear and tear to the portion that has been used). Then there's the question of calendar aging regardless of use. So all-in-all I'd be curious what is the outfall of those unlocking efforts.
 
jlsoaz said:
It's not clear to me if the upgrade to 60 was hardware or software. Perhaps it just required someone to pay money and have a portion of the battery "unlocked".
...
In those cases, it could perhaps be counted as an interesting experiment because it is an older LiB that has had a lot of the battery reserved and I guess unused for a long time. So, one might buy a 40 kWh Tesla, and pay to unlock it, speculating that one could be getting a 60 kWh battery in some decent condition (though there's the wear and tear to the portion that has been used). Then there's the question of calendar aging regardless of use. So all-in-all I'd be curious what is the outfall of those unlocking efforts.
Click to expand...

They never sold a 40kWh pack. They were all 60kWh packs that were software limited, and people could pay money to unlock the full capacity. But not many of those were sold.

Tesla has done this a number of times since then.

Later on (2016/2017), the "60" (both S and X) was using a 75kWh pack that was software limited to 60kWh, again with an option to unlock the full capacity. This included my S; I selected the range unlock at purchase. Someone at work has a similar S that is still locked to 60kWh.

At some earlier point the S70 was using a software limited 85kWh pack. I've also seen some references to about of month's of deliveries of "75" that actually used a 85kWh pack. These later two cases are interesting, as the 85kWh and larger packs run at 400V (vs 350V for the smaller packs), which in turn gives them 1/6 faster SuperCharging rates.

Every now and then you see a story like this, where Tesla has temporarily unlocked the range on such packs.
https://www.theverge.com/2017/9/10/16283330/tesla-hurricane-irma-update-florida-extend-range-model-s-x-60-60d
 
jlsoaz said:
DougWantsALeaf said:
Does anyone know of any 40kWh packs still out in the wild? I can't imagine there are many left that Tesla hasn't pulled back in for upgrade or early death.
Click to expand...

I see them for sale once in awhile on the usual used sites, or at least, it will say that.

It's not clear to me if the upgrade to 60 was hardware or software. Perhaps it just required someone to pay money and have a portion of the battery "unlocked". Maybe you or someone else knows with confidence.
Click to expand...

The '40 kWh' packs are software locked 60 kWh packs.
Through the years Tesla has done this software lock thing a few times. Those cars are fantastic value since they effectively never show *any* battery degradation and they charge at the peak rate of the actual battery capacity and the taper is correspondingly shallow. It also means that it is safe to charge up to "100%" daily. In the 4 ways that the higher capacity pack gives value, the locked pack gives 3 of them for free.

There has been extensive discussion over at TMC whether the software locked reserve is all at the 'top' or split between top and bottom. If there is a definitive answer I don't know it (although now with OBD2 monitoring the answer is easy to figure out) although worse case would be equal to an unlocked pack.
 
jlv said:
They never sold a 40kWh pack. They were all 60kWh packs that were software limited, and people could pay money to unlock the full capacity. But not many of those were sold.

Tesla has done this a number of times since then.
Click to expand...

Tesla offered a software limited pack with just 24kWh. So that the car would qualify for an EV tax credit.

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1122884_tesla-model-3-becomes-eligible-for-canadas-ev-tax-credit-with-93-mile-version
 
WetEV said:
Tesla offered a software limited pack with just 24kWh. So that the car would qualify for an EV tax credit.

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1122884_tesla-model-3-becomes-eligible-for-canadas-ev-tax-credit-with-93-mile-version
Click to expand...

The discussion above was on generally available S (and X) packs. The article you link was a very special case for a Model 3 that I doubt many (if any) were actually sold -- they only had to offer a trim of the model under CDN$45K in order for all trims to qualify for the tax incentive. A 93 mile range would make it a LEAF-like local only car, and would be very silly.
 
jlv said:
The discussion above was on generally available S (and X) packs. The article you link was a very special case for a Model 3 that I doubt many (if any) were actually sold -- they only had to offer a trim of the model under CDN$45K in order for all trims to qualify for the tax incentive. A 93 mile range would make it a LEAF-like local only car, and would be very silly.
Click to expand...

Silly, unless, of course, that was what the customer really wanted. Not silly if you want a car for a commute only or mostly.
 

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