GRA
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Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Official Mercedes GLC F-Cell FCPHEV thread

Tue Sep 05, 2017 5:16 pm

Via GCC:
Mercedes-Benz to showcase pre-production version of coming GLC F-Cell fuel cell PHEV at IAA
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2017/09/20170905-glcfcell.html

. . .The GLC F-CELL features a ~9 kWh lithium-ion battery pack combined with a new fuel cell stack. Around 30% more compact than previous stacks, it can be fully housed in the engine compartment for the first time. Too, the cost of the technology has been slashed due largely to a 90% reduction in the amount of platinum used in the stack. The combination of fuel cell and battery system—along with a further developed intelligent operating strategy—will offer a combined range of around 500 km (311 miles) in the NEDC. . . .

500 km/311 miles NEDC strikes me as too low given the competition. 500/311 EPA or WLTP would be okay.
Last edited by GRA on Sat Aug 18, 2018 1:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
Posts: 9512
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Official Mercedes GLC F-Cell thread

Tue Sep 12, 2017 2:54 pm

Via GCC:
Mercedes-Benz GLC F-CELL goes into preproduction; fuel-cell/battery plug-in hybrid powertrain
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2017/09/20170912-glcfcell.html

Details of the system are in the article (I'm getting an SQL error trying to copy it), but the 271.5 mile NEDC range on H2 seems a bit short. At least in Germany the density of the planned H2 station deployment will make that a minor issue - other areas with lower density of stations will be more problematic. it's certainly less inconvenient for longer trips than the i3 REx, if the H2 stations are available where needed.

Further articles:
Mercedes-Benz GLC F-Cell EQ Power plug-in hydrogen crossover launches at Frankfurt
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1112630_mercedes-benz-glc-f-cell-eq-power-plug-in-hydrogen-crossover-launches-at-frankfurt

Mercedes GLC F-Cell: Hydrogen Fuel Meets Plug-In Power
http://insideevs.com/mercedes-glc-f-cell-hydrogen-fuel-meets-plug-in-power/
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
Posts: 9512
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Official Mercedes GLC F-Cell thread

Wed Mar 21, 2018 5:55 pm

Via GCC:
Producing the Mercedes-Benz GLC F-CELL fuel-cell SUV
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2018/03/20180321-glcfcell.html
Mainly details the production process for the stack, but also mentions that the H2 capacity is 4.4 kg in two tanks, which again strikes me as a bit low albeit less of an issue given rapid refueling, and the battery pack is 13.8kWh total, 9.3kWh usable. The article also says:

    Further development work is particularly necessary to reduce material costs: Factors in this include the further reduction of sizes and components, and also of the proportion of expensive materials. If we compare our present system with that of the B-Class F-CELL, we have already achieved a great deal—alone by reducing the platinum content by 90%. But we need to go further. Process optimizations in production will also help to lower costs – but this is more a matter of economies of scale.

    —Prof. Dr. Christian Mohrdieck, head of Fuel Cell Drive Development and General Manager of NuCellSys. . . .

The article also mentions that they've increased output by 40% and reduced size by 30% so the stack and related components all fit under the hood, as with the current Clarity. I think we're still at least one and probably two generations of fuel cells away from comparable cost with ICEs.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
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Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
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Re: Official Mercedes GLC F-Cell FCPHEV thread

Wed Oct 10, 2018 5:54 pm

Via GCC:
Mercedes-Benz fuel cell SUV PHEV in production; first units of GLC F-CELL to be delivered by end of October
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2018/10/20181010-glcfcell.html

For all those waiting for a PHFCEV, here it is.
Last edited by GRA on Sat Oct 13, 2018 3:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

WetEV
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Re: Official Mercedes GLC F-Cell FCPHEV thread

Wed Oct 10, 2018 9:02 pm

GRA wrote:Fort all those waiting for a PHFCEV, here it is.

With 7.4kW on board charger and 32 NEDC miles of range, it wouldn't be totally useless outside California. 20 EPA miles of range might handle my old commute, if using the workplace charge stations everyday... Totally rad. Fort it is. Closest hydrogen station is just 590 miles away. If it is working, that is.
WetEV
#49
Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
2012 Leaf SL Red (Totaled)
2014 Leaf SL Red

GRA
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Re: Official Mercedes GLC F-Cell FCPHEV thread

Thu Oct 11, 2018 3:48 pm

WetEV wrote:
GRA wrote:Fort all those waiting for a PHFCEV, here it is.

With 7.4kW on board charger and 32 NEDC miles of range, it wouldn't be totally useless outside California. 20 EPA miles of range might handle my old commute, if using the workplace charge stations everyday... Totally rad. Fort it is. Closest hydrogen station is just 590 miles away. If it is working, that is.

As noted in the article,
The market launch will focus above all on major cities which are already comparatively well equipped with hydrogen filling stations: Berlin, Hamburg, Frankfurt, Stuttgart, Munich, Cologne and Düsseldorf. with existing H2 infrastructure.

The same will undoubtedly apply once they bring it here, so CA metro areas and then the northeast as more stations appear there: http://chfcc.org/existing-and-planned-hydrogen-fueling-stations-northeast-us/
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

Oils4AsphaultOnly
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Leaf Number: 313890
Location: Arcadia, CA

Re: Official Mercedes GLC F-Cell FCPHEV thread

Fri Oct 12, 2018 11:43 am

WetEV wrote:
GRA wrote:Fort all those waiting for a PHFCEV, here it is.

With 7.4kW on board charger and 32 NEDC miles of range, it wouldn't be totally useless outside California. 20 EPA miles of range might handle my old commute, if using the workplace charge stations everyday... Totally rad. Fort it is. Closest hydrogen station is just 590 miles away. If it is working, that is.


Looks like they recognized the error of their ways and increased the battery size to 13.2kwh: http://www.greencarcongress.com/2018/10 ... ongress%29

@GRA, I can get behind a FC-PHEV, and not a FCEV, because with a large enough battery, this car can do 90% of its driving on electricity (with minimal transfer losses of going from solar panels, through the inverters, and straight into the battery). The costs to produce enough H2 for that remaining 10% of driving is an acceptable trade-off for fast refueling.

Maybe Toyota and Hyundai can revamp their products to be PHEV's instead? The reduction of the fuel-cell stack size (and thus cooling needs) should go a long way towards providing more space for batteries. If the GLC FCPHEV sells more than either the Mirai or Tucson, then maybe it'll open their eyes.
:: Model 3 LR :: acquired 9 May '18
:: Leaf S30 :: build date: Sep '16 :: purchased: Nov '16
Date - Miles / GIDs:
May '17 - 7300 mi / 363
Feb '18 - 20.5k mi / 333

DarthPuppy
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Re: Official Mercedes GLC F-Cell FCPHEV thread

Fri Oct 12, 2018 6:12 pm

Interesting. This approach would seem to take some of the bite out of the lack of infrastructure. I think the battery needs to be a bit larger so there is more pure EV capability and less dependence on the H2 infrastructure. I can see this being more successful than the Mirai. It will be interesting to see how it actually does when it hits the market. I suspect it will be too pricey. But I thought the same about the Model S and Model X and those do seem to sell.
'13 Leaf SL
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GRA
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Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Official Mercedes GLC F-Cell FCPHEV thread

Sat Oct 13, 2018 4:13 pm

Oils4AsphaultOnly wrote:
WetEV wrote:
GRA wrote:Fort all those waiting for a PHFCEV, here it is.

With 7.4kW on board charger and 32 NEDC miles of range, it wouldn't be totally useless outside California. 20 EPA miles of range might handle my old commute, if using the workplace charge stations everyday... Totally rad. Fort it is. Closest hydrogen station is just 590 miles away. If it is working, that is.


Looks like they recognized the error of their ways and increased the battery size to 13.2kwh: http://www.greencarcongress.com/2018/10 ... ongress%29

@GRA, I can get behind a FC-PHEV, and not a FCEV, because with a large enough battery, this car can do 90% of its driving on electricity (with minimal transfer losses of going from solar panels, through the inverters, and straight into the battery). The costs to produce enough H2 for that remaining 10% of driving is an acceptable trade-off for fast refueling.

Maybe Toyota and Hyundai can revamp their products to be PHEV's instead? The reduction of the fuel-cell stack size (and thus cooling needs) should go a long way towards providing more space for batteries. If the GLC FCPHEV sells more than either the Mirai or Tucson, then maybe it'll open their eyes.

I've been saying for a few years now that for those who can benefit (i.e. have convenient charging for routine use), a PHFCEV combines the best features of the two techs: Battery for local use with max. efficiency, plus the FC for long range/quick refueling and waste heat for winter without hauling around the weight and bulk of a big battery all the time. I do think that we still need one more generation of battery and FC improvements in weight/volume/size for these to be commercially viable, but it's nice to have one available to the public as opposed to the commercial-only PHFCEVs like the Kangoo Z.E.

DarthPuppy wrote: I think the battery needs to be a bit larger so there is more pure EV capability and less dependence on the H2 infrastructure. I can see this being more successful than the Mirai. It will be interesting to see how it actually does when it hits the market. I suspect it will be too pricey. But I thought the same about the Model S and Model X and those do seem to sell.

I agree that there will eventually be a need for bigger packs providing a variety of longer battery ranges (say 20/40/60 miles, or whatever increments best meet public desires), but for now they should keep the packs sized so they can be fully charged overnight on L1, making these cars viable with the least hassle and lowest price for the maximum number of customers, including those who live in condos/townhomes/apartments with limited charging facilities.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

SageBrush
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Re: Official Mercedes GLC F-Cell FCPHEV thread

Sat Oct 13, 2018 4:27 pm

Sorry, but I'm completely sold on high speed (real high speed) BEV charging ala Tesla.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

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