Oils4AsphaultOnly
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Re: Official Mercedes GLC F-Cell FCPHEV thread

Sat Oct 13, 2018 6:11 pm

GRA wrote:I've been saying for a few years now that for those who can benefit (i.e. have convenient charging for routine use), a PHFCEV combines the best features of the two techs: Battery for local use with max. efficiency, plus the FC for long range/quick refueling and waste heat for winter without hauling around the weight and bulk of a big battery all the time. I do think that we still need one more generation of battery and FC improvements in weight/volume/size for these to be commercially viable, but it's nice to have one available to the public as opposed to the commercial-only PHFCEVs like the Kangoo Z.E.


I don't agree with the "excess bulk" assessment. an FC stack, plus radiator, plus H2 tank occupy space that would've been used by the batteries. there's no benefit there. it's just a trade-off made strictly for the benefit of fast refilling.

the FC-PHEV is just an interim solution for those with that particular need. by the time batteries get to a level you're happy with, they'll be dense enough that a 10%-80% charge will get you 250 miles range in just 15 mins, and in a volume that's smaller than an FC system. that renders FC's pointless by then.
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SageBrush
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Re: Official Mercedes GLC F-Cell FCPHEV thread

Sat Oct 13, 2018 6:29 pm

IIRC California is spending $2M a refueling station to charge customers $20 a Kg, while Tesla is spending ~ $200k and charging about 4 cents a mile.

Hydrogen FC for cars is so far past brain dead it hurts to be reminded about it.
Last edited by SageBrush on Sun Oct 14, 2018 11:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado
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GRA
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Re: Official Mercedes GLC F-Cell FCPHEV thread

Sun Oct 14, 2018 4:19 pm

Oils4AsphaultOnly wrote:
GRA wrote:I've been saying for a few years now that for those who can benefit (i.e. have convenient charging for routine use), a PHFCEV combines the best features of the two techs: Battery for local use with max. efficiency, plus the FC for long range/quick refueling and waste heat for winter without hauling around the weight and bulk of a big battery all the time. I do think that we still need one more generation of battery and FC improvements in weight/volume/size for these to be commercially viable, but it's nice to have one available to the public as opposed to the commercial-only PHFCEVs like the Kangoo Z.E.


I don't agree with the "excess bulk" assessment. an FC stack, plus radiator, plus H2 tank occupy space that would've been used by the batteries. there's no benefit there. it's just a trade-off made strictly for the benefit of fast refilling.

There's definitely a weight advantage as the required range goes up owing to the different weight scaling, and that translates to improved efficiency whether running on the battery or FC.

Oils4AsphaultOnly wrote:the FC-PHEV is just an interim solution for those with that particular need. by the time batteries get to a level you're happy with, they'll be dense enough that a 10%-80% charge will get you 250 miles range in just 15 mins, and in a volume that's smaller than an FC system. that renders FC's pointless by then.

If that happens I agree, but it hasn't happened yet and we can't count on it. Especially as the vehicles get bigger, the weight and bulk advantage of energy storage via H2 instead of batteries increases, and with the U.S. population moving away from cars and towards bigger, draggier CUVs, that's going to matter.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
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Re: Official Mercedes GLC F-Cell FCPHEV thread

Sun Oct 14, 2018 4:26 pm

SageBrush wrote:IIRC California is spending $2M a refueling station to charge customers $20 a Kg, while Tesla is spending ~ $200k and charging about 4 cents a mile.

Hydrogen is so far past brain dead it hurts to think about it.

Well, no. Some stations are charging $20/kg, and some are charging $9.99: as I pointed out above, there isn't yet a sufficient density of stations to provide price competition. Assume a 30 mpg ICE is the typical competition and California's current avg. price for regular gas is at $3.82 today. An FCEV will get 60 mpkg or better, so while the cheapest H2 is still more expensive per mile than gas, it only takes H2 prices to be about double gas prices for them to be competitive with conventional ICEs. As for the cost of stations, those are dropping per kg. of capacity as the latter increases. Still a ways to go to be competitive, but getting there. And that's enough OT for now.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

SageBrush
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Re: Official Mercedes GLC F-Cell FCPHEV thread

Sun Oct 14, 2018 11:15 pm

"a ways to go"

ROFL !
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado
3/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
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GRA
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Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
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Re: Official Mercedes GLC F-Cell FCPHEV thread

Mon Oct 15, 2018 5:31 pm

SageBrush wrote:"a ways to go"

ROFL !

Having seen PV and wind progress from a much greater 'ways to go' (e.g. $7.50/Wp for retail PV) since I first got involved with them around 1990 when there were plenty of people making similarly negative predictions about them, to where they're now (thanks largely to govt. subsidies in the interim) often out-competing conventional sources without subsidies (<$1/Wp ditto), I'm not going to write H2/FCEVs off for several years yet. While I retain a healthy skepticism about the ultimate commercial success of H2/FCEVs (along with all new, potentially disruptive tech), that doesn't preclude the possibility that they will succeed. Rolling on the floor, you can get dirty.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

DarthPuppy
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Re: Official Mercedes GLC F-Cell FCPHEV thread

Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:28 pm

Another plus for the GLC is the fact that it is an SUV form factor that the US consumers seem to be favoring lately. This should help its appeal vs. the Mirai. But again, it is likely to be too pricey being an MB.
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GRA
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Re: Official Mercedes GLC F-Cell FCPHEV thread

Tue Oct 16, 2018 4:26 pm

DarthPuppy wrote:Another plus for the GLC is the fact that it is an SUV form factor that the US consumers seem to be favoring lately. This should help its appeal vs. the Mirai. But again, it is likely to be too pricey being an MB.

It will undoubtedly be at the high end of the range, but then so are Tesla's, and anyone whose needs are better matched by a PHFCEV than a BEV (ModelX/i-Pace/e-Tron 55 Quattro) may look to it. Granted, in the U.S. at the moment that's only in parts of California and in the not too distant future the BOS-NY corridor. Other countries like Germany are further along in building H2 infrastructure, and given the choice between a foreign make or a (German) domestic one, the German public will largely opt for the latter. Whether that means the e-Tron 55 or the GLC F-Cell, we'll see; the former can be used by more people out of the gate, but the GLC is smaller and will have better trip range, especially in cold weather.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
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Re: Official Mercedes GLC F-Cell FCPHEV thread

Tue Nov 13, 2018 6:55 pm

Via GCC:
Market launch of Mercedes-Benz GLC F-Cell fuel cell plug-in hybrid
https://www.greencarcongress.com/2018/11/20181113-mb.html

Mercedes-Benz has handed over the first GLC F-CELL (earlier post) vehicles to selected customers in the German market.

The Mercedes-Benz GLC F-CELL (combined hydrogen consumption: 0.34 kg/100 km, combined CO2 emissions: 0 g/km, combined electrical consumption: 13.7 kWh/100 km) features both fuel cells and a battery drive which can be charged externally using plug-in technology.

Alongside various national and regional ministries as well as the National Organization Hydrogen (NOW) and H2 Mobility, the first customers in the German market also include Deutsche Bahn, the German railways. Further handovers will also be made this year, including to the companies Air Liquide, Shell, Linde AG and also the cities of Stuttgart and Hamburg.

From the spring of 2019, other business as well as private customers will also be able to experience the new fuel cell technology and rent the vehicle via Mercedes-Benz Rent from one of the seven GLC F-CELL outlets throughout Germany. The GLC F-CELL will be available for both short and long-term rental via the Premium Car Rental service from Mercedes-Benz. . . .

. . . the GLC F-CELL achieves around 430 hydrogen-based kilometers (267 miles) in the NEDC cycle; in hybrid mode it additionally delivers up to 51 km (32 miles) on a fully charged battery. At the same time, an output of 155 kW helps to ensure high driving dynamics. . . .
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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