GRA
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Re: Tesla Semi Truck

Fri Jan 19, 2018 4:38 pm

AndyH wrote:
lorenfb wrote:
AndyH wrote:Reality from Seeking Alpha? Not likely.

Can't refute anything, so just dismiss it, right? O.K., back to cranking-up your PC clock speed to possibly mine the next blockchain.

You know your comment made no sense, right? One doesn't crank up their PC clock speed to mine blocks on any blockchain - it's more about the random number generator. One also doesn't find any useful information about EVs from Seeking Alpha. One doesn't waste time refuting cargo on a garbage truck. Batteries are just fine for long trips as long as one can charge them - that's how my smart can travel beyond it's max range and how Teslas can travel coast to coast. We've had EVs since the 1800s - this isn't new. The article's crap and you're still a troll best left on ignore.

Andy, Edmund's experiences described in the Seeking Alpha article using a Model X for long-distance towing aren't crap, they are a real-world demonstration of the lack of practicality of that (or really any current BEV) and the available infrastructure for towing. The limited range, long charging times, spacing of SCs and especially the lack of pull-through charging spots are all significant handicaps that make the car extremely poorly suited for the job for anyone for whom time and hassle are constraints, and that's most people. Some of these are fixable, but some (currently) aren't.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

AndyH
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Re: Tesla Semi Truck

Fri Jan 19, 2018 4:50 pm

GRA wrote:
AndyH wrote:
lorenfb wrote:Can't refute anything, so just dismiss it, right? O.K., back to cranking-up your PC clock speed to possibly mine the next blockchain.

You know your comment made no sense, right? One doesn't crank up their PC clock speed to mine blocks on any blockchain - it's more about the random number generator. One also doesn't find any useful information about EVs from Seeking Alpha. One doesn't waste time refuting cargo on a garbage truck. Batteries are just fine for long trips as long as one can charge them - that's how my smart can travel beyond it's max range and how Teslas can travel coast to coast. We've had EVs since the 1800s - this isn't new. The article's crap and you're still a troll best left on ignore.

Andy, Edmund's experiences described in the Seeking Alpha article using a Model X for long-distance towing aren't crap, they are a real-world demonstration of the lack of practicality of that (or really any current BEV) and the available infrastructure for towing. The limited range, long charging times, spacing of SCs and especially the lack of pull-through charging spots are all significant handicaps that make the car extremely poorly suited for the job for anyone for whom time and hassle are constraints, and that's most people. Some of these are fixable, but some (currently) aren't.

Maybe the info's accurate for a Model X, but when it's misapplied in a thread about the Tesla Semi, which is actually designed to pull a lot of weight, it's little more than FUD.

ETA...It seems Tesla knows how to place superchargers for folks towing. Does anyone (at least anyone that's ever left their county and stopped at a truck stop) think that charging infrastructure placed for the semi will require backing in?
https://youtu.be/TYtJqM8D3aQ?t=6m28s
Last edited by AndyH on Fri Jan 19, 2018 5:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"The stupid become extinct."-Bill Mollison
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GRA
Posts: 8837
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Tesla Semi Truck

Fri Jan 19, 2018 4:55 pm

AndyH wrote:
GRA wrote:
AndyH wrote:You know your comment made no sense, right? One doesn't crank up their PC clock speed to mine blocks on any blockchain - it's more about the random number generator. One also doesn't find any useful information about EVs from Seeking Alpha. One doesn't waste time refuting cargo on a garbage truck. Batteries are just fine for long trips as long as one can charge them - that's how my smart can travel beyond it's max range and how Teslas can travel coast to coast. We've had EVs since the 1800s - this isn't new. The article's crap and you're still a troll best left on ignore.

Andy, Edmund's experiences described in the Seeking Alpha article using a Model X for long-distance towing aren't crap, they are a real-world demonstration of the lack of practicality of that (or really any current BEV) and the available infrastructure for towing. The limited range, long charging times, spacing of SCs and especially the lack of pull-through charging spots are all significant handicaps that make the car extremely poorly suited for the job for anyone for whom time and hassle are constraints, and that's most people. Some of these are fixable, but some (currently) aren't.

Maybe the info's accurate for a Model X, but when it's misapplied in a thread about the Tesla Semi, which is actually designed to pull a lot of weight, it's little more than FUD.

Andy, I and others who have experience in trucking are wondering about the vehicle's weight with batteries, costs etc. If you go upthread I posted some back of the envelope calcs here, and there is also an article from IEVS by an engineer who came up with similar values, and several others have chimed in. Start here with the George Bowers' article, then calcs and some other's concerns follow: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=24551&p=511899&hilit=Tesla+Semi+Truck#p511899

I'll just add to one of my previous posts, where I wrote that using the 500-mile Semi to haul battery packs from the gigafactory to Fremont seemed like a good use of it. It may still be, but on further consideration trailer loading could well be problematic, as batteries are a very dense commodity which may make loading the nose of a trailer difficult, given that it there will already be a lot of extra weight on the tractor's rear axles from the battery. Having had to empty and then reload my share of trailers that wouldn't scale, this may seriously inhibit the utility of the Tesla semi for this job. Light carton freight, no problem, but liquid drums, heavy pallets, dense metal etc. where gross rather than cube is controlling will be affected in a major way.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

AndyH
Posts: 6384
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 3:43 pm
Location: San Antonio

Re: Tesla Semi Truck

Fri Jan 19, 2018 5:22 pm

GRA wrote:
AndyH wrote:
GRA wrote:Andy, Edmund's experiences described in the Seeking Alpha article using a Model X for long-distance towing aren't crap, they are a real-world demonstration of the lack of practicality of that (or really any current BEV) and the available infrastructure for towing. The limited range, long charging times, spacing of SCs and especially the lack of pull-through charging spots are all significant handicaps that make the car extremely poorly suited for the job for anyone for whom time and hassle are constraints, and that's most people. Some of these are fixable, but some (currently) aren't.

Maybe the info's accurate for a Model X, but when it's misapplied in a thread about the Tesla Semi, which is actually designed to pull a lot of weight, it's little more than FUD.

Andy, I and others who have experience in trucking are wondering about the vehicle's weight with batteries, costs etc. If you go upthread I posted some back of the envelope calcs here, and there is also an article from IEVS by an engineer who came up with similar values, and several others have chimed in. Start here with the George Bowers' article, then calcs and some other's concerns follow: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=24551&p=511899&hilit=Tesla+Semi+Truck#p511899

I'll just add to one of my previous posts, where I wrote that using the 500-mile Semi to haul battery packs from the gigafactory to Fremont seemed like a good use of it. It may still be, but on further consideration trailer loading could well be problematic, as batteries are a very dense commodity which may make loading the nose of a trailer difficult, given that it there will already be a lot of extra weight on the tractor's rear axles from the battery. Having had to empty and then reload my share of trailers that wouldn't scale, this may seriously inhibit the utility of the Tesla semi for this job. Light carton freight, no problem, but liquid drums, heavy pallets, dense metal etc. where gross rather than cube is controlling will be affected in a major way.

My dad drove mail while I was a kid. I sold oil and advised small trucking company on maintenance for efficiency. I've made batteries and have personal experience with towing, hauling loads, and EVs of various sizes. Based on that, and on the changes made to the Tesla semi (like - there are no massive cast iron differential 'pumpkins' on the back of the electric - those things are massive and weight about 2500 lbs each). We'll have to agree the disagree. In 4 or 5 Elon Years(tm) when the semis hit the street, we can compare notes.

(Also, check the edit in my post above - I added a link to a Tesla Supercharger layout that has a charger for folks towing trailers. Yes, they exist right meow.)
"The stupid become extinct."-Bill Mollison
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GRA
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Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Tesla Semi Truck

Fri Jan 19, 2018 5:25 pm

AndyH wrote: <snip>
(Also, check the edit in my post above - I added a link to a Tesla Supercharger layout that has a charger for folks towing trailers. Yes, they exist right meow.)

Yes, there are a few, after people complained about the lack of them when the Model X first showed up - the need for same hadn't occurred to Tesla before that, just as they hadn't realized until people started to bitch that SCs in areas that got snow shouldn't use side-mounted stalls on islands, as they blocked the use of snow plows (not an issue in the Bay Area). Some of the newer large SC sites are being built as all pull- through, which is a good thing. But not all of the new ones have them, and most of the existing sites lack them entirely. So this is one of the areas where improvements can (must) be made to make towing more practical. In the case of the Semi it isn't a big deal, as they simply lack the range for long-haul and should normally charge only at each end of the run, before picking up or after dropping the trailer.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

AndyH
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Location: San Antonio

Re: Tesla Semi Truck

Fri Jan 19, 2018 5:47 pm

GRA wrote:
AndyH wrote: <snip>
(Also, check the edit in my post above - I added a link to a Tesla Supercharger layout that has a charger for folks towing trailers. Yes, they exist right meow.)

Yes, there are a few, after people complained about the lack of them when the Model X first showed up - the need for same hadn't occurred to Tesla before that, just as they hadn't realized until people started to bitch that SCs in areas that got snow shouldn't use side-mounted stalls on islands, as they blocked the use of snow plows (not an issue in the Bay Area). Some of the newer large SC sites are being built as all pull- through, which is a good thing. But not all of the new ones have them, and most of the existing sites lack them entirely. So this is one of the areas where improvements can (must) be made to make towing more practical. In the case of the Semi it isn't a big deal, as they simply lack the range for long-haul and should normally charge only at each end of the run, before picking up or after dropping the trailer.

Sorry man - no long-haul truck refuels only at end points. One of my customers ran dry boxes from Mexico to Canada on "NAFTA" routes. They built their own service centers along the routes so their drivers can get what they need from the company. It will be trivial for them to install truck chargers at their facilities. And yes - they're spaced for intervals that will work with Tesla's fully-loaded trucks as well.
Last edited by AndyH on Fri Jan 19, 2018 5:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"The stupid become extinct."-Bill Mollison
2018 Outlander PHEV
2015 smart Electric Drive (lease ended Feb, 2018)
OpenEVSE Plus DIY

GRA
Posts: 8837
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Tesla Semi Truck

Fri Jan 19, 2018 5:51 pm

AndyH wrote:
GRA wrote:
AndyH wrote: <snip>
(Also, check the edit in my post above - I added a link to a Tesla Supercharger layout that has a charger for folks towing trailers. Yes, they exist right meow.)

Yes, there are a few, after people complained about the lack of them when the Model X first showed up - the need for same hadn't occurred to Tesla before that, just as they hadn't realized until people started to bitch that SCs in areas that got snow shouldn't use side-mounted stalls on islands, as they blocked the use of snow plows (not an issue in the Bay Area). Some of the newer large SC sites are being built as all pull- through, which is a good thing. But not all of the new ones have them, and most of the existing sites lack them entirely. So this is one of the areas where improvements can (must) be made to make towing more practical. In the case of the Semi it isn't a big deal, as they simply lack the range for long-haul and should normally charge only at each end of the run, before picking up or after dropping the trailer.

Sorry man - no long-haul truck refuels only at end points. <snip>
And as I wrote, I believe the Tesla Semi is ill-suited for long haul with its current (announced) capabilities - it should be used for distribution and delivery, for which it is well suited.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

AndyH
Posts: 6384
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 3:43 pm
Location: San Antonio

Re: Tesla Semi Truck

Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:18 pm

GRA wrote: - it should be used for distribution and delivery, for which it is well suited.

One might have thought the day cab gave that away, but whatever. ;)

I take a break for a couple of years and find MNL exactly how I left it. Impressive! :lol:
"The stupid become extinct."-Bill Mollison
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lorenfb
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Re: Tesla Semi Truck

Fri Jan 19, 2018 8:48 pm

AndyH wrote:
GRA wrote: - it should be used for distribution and delivery, for which it is well suited.

One might have thought the day cab gave that away, but whatever. ;)

I take a break for a couple of years and find MNL exactly how I left it. Impressive! :lol:


Here's an attempt to refute the negatives about the Tesla semi previously posted;


Semi truck battery size likely 800kWh; needs 1.2MW chargers.
I analyze bearish claims made by Bloomberg article on Semi reveal event and disagree with its conclusions on all four points.
No new battery breakthroughs are required.
7 cents per kWh charging cost is probably an introductory offer like "free supercharging for life" limited to early adopters.


https://seekingalpha.com/article/4138772-tesla-semi-details#alt2

Andy, we enjoy your posts.
Leaf SL MY 9/13: 66K miles, 50 Ahrs, 5.2 miles/kWh (average), Hx=70, SOH=78, L2 charges to 100% > 1000, max battery temp < 95F (35C), min discharge point > 20 Ahrs

SageBrush
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Re: Tesla Semi Truck

Fri Jan 19, 2018 9:11 pm

AndyH wrote:
GRA wrote: - it should be used for distribution and delivery, for which it is well suited.

One might have thought the day cab gave that away, but whatever. ;)
IIRC Tesla expects to make a sleeper cab model.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado
3/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
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