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RegGuheert
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Re: Tesla Semi Truck

Tue Feb 27, 2018 1:21 pm

lorenfb wrote:You're joking, right?
Not in the least. Power electronics is one of the most difficult design areas in electrical engineering and Tesla has achieved performance beyond what most others has been able to approach.

That fact that you put power electronics in quotes twice tells me that you are completely unaware of this highly-specialized discipline within electrical engineering. That's not surprising, since this discipline is not taught at most universities around the world which offer training in other disciplines of electrical engineering. Back in the 1980s, only four universities in the US offered training in the discipline. That was back when a power inverter was huge, expensive, had very little output power, had an efficiency of only about 70% and was often a very unreliable piece of equipment. The number of universities which teach power electronics has grown since that time, but unless you went to one of those schools or learned how to design switchmode power conversion equipment on the job, you would have little to no understanding of how these devices work. Today the most advanced inverters achieve efficiency above 99% and are incredibly rugged and reliable. Only someone who has designed switchmode power converters would understand how difficult it is to achieve such performance.

There is no need to wonder whether or not Tesla designs their own inverters: they do:
Electrek wrote:A source very familiar with the Model 3 powertrain program confirmed that Tesla tapped the same engineers who worked on the dual motor inverter architecture to develop the Model 3’s, but this time, they were given a blank sheet to develop the system from the ground up, including the power semiconductor package.
Here is a picture of the inverter in the Tesla Model S:

Image
RegGuheert
2011 Leaf SL Demo vehicle
10K mi. on 041413; 20K mi. (55.7Ah) on 080714; 30K mi. (52.0Ah) on 123015; 40K mi. (49.8Ah) on 020817; 50K mi. (47.2Ah) on 120717; 60K mi. (43.66Ah) on 091918.
Enphase Inverter Measured MTBF: M190, M215, M250, S280

lorenfb
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Re: Tesla Semi Truck

Tue Feb 27, 2018 9:42 pm

RegGuheert wrote: Power electronics is one of the most difficult design areas in electrical engineering and Tesla has achieved performance beyond what most others has been able to approach.


Really? And by whose standards? Like some esteemed EE PhDs voted on Tesla's M3 power electronics and voted Tesla superior
of any automotive OEM. Totally laughable!

RegGuheert wrote: That fact that you put power electronics in quotes twice tells me that you are completely unaware of this highly-specialized discipline within electrical engineering.


That's a bit arrogant of you to assume the most EEs (example me) who have designed a number of switch-mode flyback power supplies with also
a digital design and an assembly/C/C++ programming background of microcontrollers hasn't kept up the latest technology. Any capable EE should
have the knowledge after reading a numbers of journals and papers to understand most EE disciplines, i.e. given a strong math background
and the time to study any new technology. Based on a number technical posts by some on MNL, those are likely qualified to challenge the
so-called expert and unique Tesla power electronics designers.

RegGuheert wrote:but unless you went to one of those schools or learned how to design switchmode power conversion equipment on the job, you would have little to no understanding of how these devices work. y the most advanced inverters achieve efficiency above 99% and are incredibly rugged and reliable. Only someone who has designed switchmode power converters would understand how difficult it is to achieve such performance.


The previous explanation should suffice for the above.

RegGuheert wrote:A source very familiar with the Model 3 powertrain program confirmed that Tesla tapped the same engineers who worked on the dual motor inverter architecture to develop the Model 3’s, but this time, they were given a blank sheet to develop the system from the ground up, including the power semiconductor package.


Again, so what! You imply that GM nor any other automotive OEM lacks the ability to have a highly qualified EE design group capable
of matching any Tesla power electronics development. Given your other insightful MNL posts I've read over the last 4 years, I can't
believe that you are really that serious about what you write in your resent posts. You really are playing "devils advocate", right?
Surely with your physics/engineering background & experience (an assumption), you can't possibly believe all that you post,
or has the Tesla aura overwhelmed you as it has for some who also post on MNL?
Leaf SL MY 9/13: 66K miles, 50 Ahrs, 5.2 miles/kWh (average), Hx=70, SOH=78, L2 charges to 100% > 1000, max battery temp < 95F (35C), min discharge point > 20 Ahrs

User avatar
RegGuheert
Posts: 6297
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Re: Tesla Semi Truck

Wed Feb 28, 2018 2:24 am

It's clear that you never saw an industry-leading achievement by Tesla that you didn't hate, lorenfb.

In case anyone missed it, you just made my case for me. First you tell us that OEMs have divested themselves of their electronics capabilites:
lorenfb wrote:GM had Delphi, i.e. a major source for design & production of their electronic needs, but sold it. Maybe 20-30 years ago having an in-house design and manufacturing operation was effective and profitable. But today with the complexity and advancements of technology, it's of little value to design & manufacture electronic systems & components in-house for an automotive OEM.
Next, you tell us that I'm unreasonable to think that Tesla's in-house power electronics capabilites are a key differentiator for them:
lorenfb wrote:You imply that GM nor any other automotive OEM lacks the ability to have a highly qualified EE design group capable of matching any Tesla power electronics development.
I will say it again: the power electronics that Tesla delivers in their car are state-of-the-art and excel in the industry. We aren't talking about electronic devices like a radio that you can purchase from any number of vendors around the world.

Just to make this point clear: GM outsourced the entire drivetrain for the Chevy Bolt to LG. That's right, not just the battery. They also purchase the motor, the inverter, the DC-DC converter and the charger from LG. So, really, when you purchase a Chevy Bolt, most of the dollar value of the car was built by LG, not GM. Really, it should be called the LG Bolt. Now Nissan is doing the same thing for the 2019 Nissan LEAF. They sold their battery arm to LG Chem and they are purchasing the battery and, I suspect, the electronics from LG for their car. LG LEAF, anyone?

In the past, both of those companies built the drivetrains for most of their vehicles that's what car companies did. In fact, both of them used to build the drivetrains for their electric vehicles. But not anymore. So how do GM and Nissan differentiate their cars when they both purchase the drivetrains from LG? Sheet metal. Features. Marketing. Certainly not by the battery or the drive electronics.

Back on topic: You cannot go down to the corner automotive supplier and purchase a battery or drive electronics to build a semi truck. But if you ask semi truck companies what differentiates their products, many would tell you that it is the efficiency and durability of their drivetrains. And guess what: they make them in-house. The fuel-injection system for a diesel trucks are considered to be extremely proprietary by these OEMs.

So, yes, when Tesla leverages their in-house expertise to develop an advanced battery, drivetrain and charging system for the Tesla Semi, you had better believe they have a HUGE advantage over these other truck companies. Those companies have never even TRIED to design a 300-kW inverter while Tesla is on their third generation of high-power inverters. How about a 2-MW charger? Same thing: Tesla has in-house designs and know-how so they can iterate off of them. Moving from a single 160-kW charger (which is 16 10-kW modules) to four 500-kW chargers is "one small step" for Tesla, but a "giant leap" for everyone else. Tesla simply needs to double the voltage of the battery and increase the current capability by about 50% in order to get there. They won't be able to directly use their old modules, but will instead likely design new modules for the higher-voltage, higher-power applications.

This is why Daimler's head of trucks recently said the following:
Martin Daum, Head of Trucks, Daimler wrote:If Tesla really delivers on this promise, we’ll obviously buy two trucks — one to take apart and one to test because if that happens, something has passed us by.
I suspect Daimler is wishing they hadn't outsourced their EVs to Tesla a few years back and had instead started to learn how to make drive electronics.

So, yes, lorenfb, I'm serious: Tesla has a serious lead over their competitors in the area of power electronics. And, no, most corporations in the automotive industry DO NOT have the expertise in-house to compete with Tesla. If Tesla can stay in business, I think we may see a truck builder or two that doesn't make it. That industry has consolidated over the years, but this type of disruption will be very difficult for some to weather. You can believe that the board meetings at those companies are a bit tense these days. If anyone thinks that all of these companies will be able to put together a top-notch team of power-electronics designers capable of designing the drive and charging electronics for a battery-electric semi truck, they are kidding themselves. Automotive corporations have always had difficulty attracting and retaining top electrical-engineering talent. But Tesla can. Will outsourcing those electronics get them something? Probably. But then they will be just like GM and now Nissan with their EVs: They will no longer be able to differentiate their product nor compete in terms of performance with those companies which have such a capability. Pretty sheet metal can only get you so far with a semi truck.
RegGuheert
2011 Leaf SL Demo vehicle
10K mi. on 041413; 20K mi. (55.7Ah) on 080714; 30K mi. (52.0Ah) on 123015; 40K mi. (49.8Ah) on 020817; 50K mi. (47.2Ah) on 120717; 60K mi. (43.66Ah) on 091918.
Enphase Inverter Measured MTBF: M190, M215, M250, S280

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RegGuheert
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Re: Tesla Semi Truck

Wed Feb 28, 2018 11:18 am

RegGuheert
2011 Leaf SL Demo vehicle
10K mi. on 041413; 20K mi. (55.7Ah) on 080714; 30K mi. (52.0Ah) on 123015; 40K mi. (49.8Ah) on 020817; 50K mi. (47.2Ah) on 120717; 60K mi. (43.66Ah) on 091918.
Enphase Inverter Measured MTBF: M190, M215, M250, S280

AndyH
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Location: San Antonio

Re: Tesla Semi Truck

Wed Feb 28, 2018 11:50 pm

https://cleantechnica.com/2018/02/27/tesla-semi-break-laws-physics/

Does Tesla Semi Break the Laws of Physics?

Tesla Semi has not confirmed that it can fight aliens or make latte. However, it appears likely that detractors may have missed the significance of aerodynamic efficiency gains on range. A number of sources give credence to claims of less than 2 kWh/mile efficiency given excellent aerodynamics. Lowest prior estimates of aerodynamic Cd were as high as 0.45, badly missing Tesla’s claimed Cd of 0.36. Given the lower drag, battery pack sizes and weights are consistent with the data from the Powerpack, which Tesla claims has the same cell type. This cell type, NMC, is capable of 4,000 cycles with 70% capacity retention, enough to last a million miles, competitive with diesel rigs.
"The stupid become extinct."-Bill Mollison
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User avatar
RegGuheert
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Re: Tesla Semi Truck

Thu Mar 01, 2018 10:03 am

InsideEVs is trying to figure out how the actuators work on the Tesla Semi "wings" to keep them from hitting the trailer. I'm kinda wondering if those things also prevent contact when the truck goes down into a gully. I imagine the programming for how that all works is not entirely trivial... I won't be surprised to see some of those things bent up due to trailer contact, especially when these things are still new.
RegGuheert
2011 Leaf SL Demo vehicle
10K mi. on 041413; 20K mi. (55.7Ah) on 080714; 30K mi. (52.0Ah) on 123015; 40K mi. (49.8Ah) on 020817; 50K mi. (47.2Ah) on 120717; 60K mi. (43.66Ah) on 091918.
Enphase Inverter Measured MTBF: M190, M215, M250, S280

cmwade77
Posts: 129
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2017 5:04 pm
Delivery Date: 15 Nov 2017

Re: Tesla Semi Truck

Thu Mar 01, 2018 2:41 pm

lorenfb wrote:
cmwade77 wrote:
lorenfb wrote:
Yes, I was aware of that aspect (grid demand), but you also mentioned; .
That's what (strains on the network) is now becoming the case here in SoCal. Anyway, I agree with your overall comments.

Not really, because per mile driven EVs consume less electricity than gas powered vehicles and considering most of the refining of oil is done in Southern California, as demand for gas goes down, the electricity will be freed up for EVs.


You missed the point! My issue is NOT with electricity capacity nor electricity production efficiency, it's the availability of the charging station
NETWORK, especially here in SoCal as more BEVs, e.g. the Bolts, augment the Leafs, i3s, & Kia Souls. The wait times now on average are about
15 minutes, exclusive of the needed charging times. Sorry for misinterpreting Reg's thought and going off-topic.

I see, well honestly, I haven't had wait times, unless I am being a cheapskate and don't want to pay for a charge, then occasionally I wait, otherwise I usually can find an EvGo station open without any difficulty.

What would be useful though is if all networks would report status to the Plugshare app, then we could see if a station is in use before going there and without having to check several different apps.

lorenfb
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Re: Tesla Semi Truck

Thu Mar 01, 2018 10:06 pm

cmwade77 wrote:I see, well honestly, I haven't had wait times, unless I am being a cheapskate and don't want to pay for a charge, then occasionally I wait, otherwise I usually can find an EvGo station open without any difficulty.


So where are you located, that the EVGO stations are always "open"? Here in SoCal, that's becoming a rarity. I pay on average about
$30/per month with EVGO and only use their QCs. If you don't pay, then you must use the "freebies" (L2s) or have an EVGO pass.
Leaf SL MY 9/13: 66K miles, 50 Ahrs, 5.2 miles/kWh (average), Hx=70, SOH=78, L2 charges to 100% > 1000, max battery temp < 95F (35C), min discharge point > 20 Ahrs

cmwade77
Posts: 129
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2017 5:04 pm
Delivery Date: 15 Nov 2017

Re: Tesla Semi Truck

Fri Mar 02, 2018 4:50 pm

lorenfb wrote:
cmwade77 wrote:I see, well honestly, I haven't had wait times, unless I am being a cheapskate and don't want to pay for a charge, then occasionally I wait, otherwise I usually can find an EvGo station open without any difficulty.


So where are you located, that the EVGO stations are always "open"? Here in SoCal, that's becoming a rarity. I pay on average about
$30/per month with EVGO and only use their QCs. If you don't pay, then you must use the "freebies" (L2s) or have an EVGO pass.

Really? I live in Southern California, I always find the ones in Torrance, Long Beach, Signal, Hill, Lakewood, Cerritos are all available. I do use EvGo chargers when necessary, but I do prefer to use the freebies when I can, although with the new EvGo plan that came out yesterday that will change a little bit for me. Luckily, there is a Honda dealership near my work that has free quick charging that is open to everyone, there are a couple of free quick chargers on my way home from work (one is marked as paid on Plugshare as paid, so it is rarely used), then there is one in Cypress and a few others in the area. So all in all, I usually spend about $20 a month with EvGo, including my monthly plan cost of $15. I did the math and the new plan, while more expensive per minute will save me money since I get the $9.99 as credit each month.

But overall, I can count on one hand the number of times I have had to wait for a charger, usually if there is a line I can just go to the next charger down the road, no big deal, especially with how many EvGo chargers there are around....seriously, I think between my work and my house there are at least 50 EvGo locations, with many of them have two stations. Then add in all of the chargepoint and off network chargers and there really isn't a need to wait.

Now where I do sometimes find a wait is in San Diego, unfortunately that is because the majority of the chargers there are on the Blink network, which means they don't work at all 95% of the time, so the non-blink chargers can get backed up a bit, but luckily that seems to be changing now.

lorenfb
Posts: 1812
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Re: Tesla Semi Truck

Fri Mar 02, 2018 9:12 pm

cmwade77 wrote:
lorenfb wrote:
cmwade77 wrote:I see, well honestly, I haven't had wait times, unless I am being a cheapskate and don't want to pay for a charge, then occasionally I wait, otherwise I usually can find an EvGo station open without any difficulty.


So where are you located, that the EVGO stations are always "open"? Here in SoCal, that's becoming a rarity. I pay on average about
$30/per month with EVGO and only use their QCs. If you don't pay, then you must use the "freebies" (L2s) or have an EVGO pass.

Really? I live in Southern California, I always find the ones in Torrance, Long Beach, Signal, Hill, Lakewood, Cerritos are all available. I do use EvGo chargers when necessary, but I do prefer to use the freebies when I can, although with the new EvGo plan that came out yesterday that will change a little bit for me. Luckily, there is a Honda dealership near my work that has free quick charging that is open to everyone, there are a couple of free quick chargers on my way home from work (one is marked as paid on Plugshare as paid, so it is rarely used), then there is one in Cypress and a few others in the area. So all in all, I usually spend about $20 a month with EvGo, including my monthly plan cost of $15. I did the math and the new plan, while more expensive per minute will save me money since I get the $9.99 as credit each month.

But overall, I can count on one hand the number of times I have had to wait for a charger, usually if there is a line I can just go to the next charger down the road, no big deal, especially with how many EvGo chargers there are around....seriously, I think between my work and my house there are at least 50 EvGo locations, with many of them have two stations. Then add in all of the chargepoint and off network chargers and there really isn't a need to wait.

Now where I do sometimes find a wait is in San Diego, unfortunately that is because the majority of the chargers there are on the Blink network, which means they don't work at all 95% of the time, so the non-blink chargers can get backed up a bit, but luckily that seems to be changing now.


My problem ones are at the Cerritos Shopping Center (91/605) and at the Westminister Mall (@Golden West). At Cerritos, I typically find
vehicles completed but unattended, or Teslas/phevs just parked there. At Cerritos, security will give meaningless citations if one pleads
with them. They couldn't care less.
Leaf SL MY 9/13: 66K miles, 50 Ahrs, 5.2 miles/kWh (average), Hx=70, SOH=78, L2 charges to 100% > 1000, max battery temp < 95F (35C), min discharge point > 20 Ahrs

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