Subaru Crosstrek PHEV

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GRA

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Via IEVS: https://insideevs.com/subaru-chief-...v-will-be-based-off-existing-car-coming-2020/

Subaru is expected to launch its first plug-in hybrid in 2018 and also an all-electric model in 2020, but don’t expect the Japanese manufacturer to cut a special offering for its electric future.

The stand-alone model is apparently not the part of equation for Subaru, unfortunately.

Subaru intends to offer a battery electric powertrain as an option to a conventional setup in existing models, using a general platform that handles all powertrains. . . .

Subaru’s chief designer Mamoru Ishii stated:

  • Subaru cars are designed to support people’s lifestyles, so it should not be a case of designing the car for the powertrain. If customers want change we’ll respond – our cars are about customers loving using them how they are designed – but we are not going to change our design focus just to highlight a new way of powering the car.”
As a Subaru owner since 1988, I completely agree with the bolded statements.

Once they announce which platform they're going to introduce the PHEV on (I expect it will be the Outback, Impreza or Forester), I'll change the thread title to reflect that. [Update] Per ABG, it's the Impreza (Crosstrek).
 
No EV manufacturer designs a car "just to highlight the powertrain."

This is a case of lowering expectations. My extended family were Subaru fanatics for decades, and I only wandered when it became clear Subaru was years (if not decades) behind the *EV curve. I wish them luck in catching up.
 
Will be interesting if the pure EV is 4WD with a connected drivetrain.
Or do they go with dual motors or something else.

I am unconvinced the modulated torque and braking of some traction control is better than all four wheels just spinning together.
 
Subaru has always offered the worst fuel economy of any car company in Japan. They fill a niche for those who only care about utility and put their own needs far above those of the environment. As such, it is no surprise that Subaru is one of the biggest laggards (globally) when it comes to the transition to electric drive technologies. Expect their offering to be a half-baked retrofit. Put in the minimum effort to be able to say they also ran.

Subaru will remain a niche car company as a result.
 
Subaru is something of a one trick pony: they know how to build a reliable, inexpensive, well mannered, AWD ICE drivetrain.

Unfortunately for them, EV drivetrains are quickly breaching their consumer space. IIRC, Toyota bought up a fair part of the company, although I have not seen any influence so far.
 
You must know a different Subaru than the one currently selling vehicles in the U.S... Their fuel mileage numbers are competitive with everyone else out there (and better than many), and their emissions ratings are at the top of the class...

RegGuheert said:
Subaru has always offered the worst fuel economy of any car company in Japan. They fill a niche for those who only care about utility and put their own needs far above those of the environment.
 
Code for conversion. Expect this to be heavy and a compromise vehicle. 2020, on an existing platform? I guess die hard Subaru people may buy it.
 
TomT said:
RegGuheert said:
Subaru has always offered the worst fuel economy of any car company in Japan. They fill a niche for those who only care about utility and put their own needs far above those of the environment.
You must know a different Subaru than the one currently selling vehicles in the U.S... Their fuel mileage numbers are competitive with everyone else out there (and better than many), and their emissions ratings are at the top of the class...
And their sales have improved every year by large amounts. Sure, it's a niche, but a fairly large one:
Subaru has not only been the most successful of all Japanese automakers in growing its volume in the US since 2006, it actually recorded the highest growth of all mainstream brands at 13% growth/year, beating out Audi (10%) and lower only than the luxury Maserati (20%).

Subaru’s success stems from focusing heavily on its 4×4 USP and producing a few cars that consumers really want, such as the Outback, Forester and XV Crosstrek. In so doing it has actually neglected the mainstream slightly, with the Legacy selling much worse in 2015 than in 2006, though the generally-unloved Impreza is going to cross 90k/year in 2015. Time will tell whether Subaru can continue its growth in the future , for example by launching a successful 7-seat SUV after the failure of the Tribeca.
http://carsalesbase.com/us-car-sales-data/subaru/

Here's Forbes:
Subaru Is Feeling The Love, And Record U.S. Sales In 2017
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jimhen...ve-and-record-u-s-sales-in-2017/#2a51769c673d

As to what Subaru people care about, utility, safety, reliability and good gas mileage (preferably zero emissions) given AWD, at a moderate cost. Many have been waiting patiently for FHI to come out with a PEV, as a large % of Subaru owners are outdoorsy types who like to engage in human-powered activities, and who dislike having to use fossil fuels to access them.

At the moment, given the lack of charging infrastructure, especially as the places Subies tend to be driven to will be the very last places to get destination charging and in many cases never will get it owing to a lack of any electric infrastructure, plus the fact that they're often bought as snow cars, only a PHEV makes sense. Once the enroute QC (or H2 as the case may be) infrastructure's in place, a switch to a full ZEV will be the preferred option, and will be demanded by their customers. That's still some years away: to take me as an example, even Tesla's SC network as it currently stands wouldn't allow me to repeat many of the trips I've taken over the past 40 years or so to a variety of national parks, monuments or other outdoor areas. You have to have full coverage off the interstates, on U.S., state and local highways to meet the active outdoor demographic's vehicle needs.
 
RegGuheert said:
They fill a niche for those who only care about utility and put their own needs far above those of the environment.
GRA said:
As to what Subaru people care about, utility, safety, reliability and good gas mileage (preferably zero emissions) given AWD, at a moderate cost.
You've made my point exactly:

2018 Toyota Prius: 52 MPG
2018 Subaru Forester AWD: 28 MPG

Subarus use nearly twice as much fuel all the time for the 0.5% of the time when people want to entertain themselves.
 
RegGuheert said:
RegGuheert said:
They fill a niche for those who only care about utility and put their own needs far above those of the environment.
GRA said:
As to what Subaru people care about, utility, safety, reliability and good gas mileage (preferably zero emissions) given AWD, at a moderate cost.
You've made my point exactly:

2018 Toyota Prius: 52 MPG
2018 Subaru Forester AWD: 28 MPG

Subarus use nearly twice as much fuel all the time for the 0.5% of the time when people want to entertain themselves.
The Outback is 32 mpg highway. Stinks compared to a Prius, but compare to fleet average for that kind/size of car.

They are not moving the needle, but they are not really laggards, either.
 
Aside from a different floor pan stamping to accommodate the battery pack is there anything really all that unique about the structure of an EV vs an ICE?

They may just have meant they are planning on it looking like one of their "normal" cars, which is probably a good thing. No point incurring additional tooling costs just to create an EV-dorkmobile that further distances the technology from mainstream buyers.
 
RegGuheert said:
RegGuheert said:
They fill a niche for those who only care about utility and put their own needs far above those of the environment.
GRA said:
As to what Subaru people care about, utility, safety, reliability and good gas mileage (preferably zero emissions) given AWD, at a moderate cost.
You've made my point exactly:

2018 Toyota Prius: 52 MPG
2018 Subaru Forester AWD: 28 MPG

Subarus use nearly twice as much fuel all the time for the 0.5% of the time when people want to entertain themselves.
Uh huh, and when exactly will AWD be available in the Prius? As it is, we've finally (2+ years late) gotten the first relatively affordable AWD PHEV now that the Outlander is arriving, and we still don't have an affordable AWD BEV.

As for what priority the environment has in people's choices, anyone who has chosen to have children when they have the means to prevent that is in no position to lecture anybody else about putting their own needs "far above those of the environment," given the resources that will be used throughout each of those children's lives to feed, clothe, house, transport, educate, employ, entertain and provide medical care for them, especially if they expect to enjoy an American standard of living. And if they have kids . . .

The problem with putting yourself on a pedestal is that it makes you a better target.
 
Via IEVS:
Subaru PHEV to Launch In U.S. This Year, BEV In 2021
https://insideevs.com/subaru-phev-launch-u-s-2018-bev-2021/

. . . In order to get the PHEV to market quickly, Subaru will use the Toyota Prius Prime’s system as a platform. The exec told Automotive News:

  • “For our plug-in hybrid to be introduced this year, we have used Toyota’s technologies as much as possible.

    We can’t engage in a large-scale development.”

Interestingly, nonetheless, Subaru will still use its longitudinal “boxer” engine configuration, in tandem with the electric motor and battery pack. Whereas, the Prime has a traditionally mounted engine setup. . . .
Other articles indicate the car will be built in Japan and shipped to the U.S., which probably means it will be either a Cross-Trek or Forester (the latter being redesigned for 2019), as Subaru makes all their other models which are sold here in their plant in Indiana, and that availability will be restricted to CARB states.

While it will use the Prime's 8.8 kWh battery pack and motor, I expect it will drive like a Subaru and not a Prius.
 
GRA said:
While it will use the Prime's 8.8 kWh battery pack and motor, I expect it will drive like a Subaru and not a Prius.
I would say that the Prius Prime's system is a LOT more than a "battery pack and motor".

I just watched a teardown of the Toyota Prius/Prime transaxle the other day:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dHeRJdrnI8[/youtube]

My impression is that this fourth-generation transaxle is very refined. There is a lot of technology in that box which would be hard to match in a new design: thermal design, lubrication, motor design, controls design, packaging, manufacturability, reliability, performance, weight, and much more.

So what is in this for Toyota to license this critical piece of technology to a company which "can’t engage in a large-scale development"? Do they have a relationship beyond that of a supplier/integrator relationship?
 
RegGuheert said:
GRA said:
While it will use the Prime's 8.8 kWh battery pack and motor, I expect it will drive like a Subaru and not a Prius.
I would say that the Prius Prime's system is a LOT more than a "battery pack and motor".

I just watched a teardown of the Toyota Prius/Prime transaxle the other day:

[youtube]htts://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dHeRJdrnI8[/youtube]

My impression is that this fourth-generation transaxle is very refined. There is a lot of technology in that box which would be hard to match in a new design: thermal design, lubrication, motor design, controls design, packaging, manufacturability, reliability, performance, weight, and much more.

So what is in this for Toyota to license this critical piece of technology to a company which "can’t engage in a large-scale development"? Do they have a relationship beyond that of a supplier/integrator relationship?
As the article noted Toyota owns 17% of Subaru, and they've previously collaborated - the BRZ and FR-S were both designed by Subaru, with each company doing their own chassis tweaking and with some minor differences in the interiors and exterior cosmetics. As this article says, Toyota is involved with Mazda and Denso to use the tech:
Toyota, Mazda And Denso Team Up To Work On EVs
https://insideevs.com/toyota-mazda-denso-team-work-evs/ Subaru joined later.
 
Via GCR:
Report: Subaru may use Evoltis name for new plug-in hybrid coming next year
https://www.greencarreports.com/new...oltis-for-new-plug-in-hybrid-coming-next-year

Subaru buyers would seem to be the perfect group to be interested in buying plug-in cars: They love the outdoors and want to enjoy it unspoiled. Yet the company has lagged in producing anything electric. Its only hybrid so far, the first-generation Crosstrek Hybrid, barely registered on the green-car scene. Behind the wheel, it barely registered as a hybrid; the gas engine had to run to accomplish almost anything.

Now in a trademark filing, first reported by Car and Driver, the company has potentially registered a name for its first plug-in product: Evoltis. A spokeswoman for Subaru declined to comment on the filing or the potential name. The Evoltis may be a plug-in hybrid using technology from the Toyota Prius Prime and could go on sale as early as 2019. The Evoltis also may be based on the recently updated Crosstrek. . . .
Whichever platform they offer it on, I hope they have a re-think on the name. "Evoltis" seems too close to "revolting" , as well as being the sort of completely made-up word that too many Japanese auto manufacturers seem to take pleasure in using for their car names. Still, if the car is good enough people will live with the name.
 
GRA said:
While it will use the Prime's 8.8 kWh battery pack and motor, I expect it will drive like a Subaru and not a Prius.
8.8 kWh in a Subaru is not going to be anywhere near the 25 mile EV range it is in a Prius Prime.

I hope Subaru has a wildly successful first PHEV (and truth be told, I admire that company a lot), but I am not feeling optimistic.
 
GRA said:
While it will use the Prime's 8.8 kWh battery pack and motor, I expect it will drive like a Subaru and not a Prius.
8.8 kWh in a Subaru is not going to be anywhere near the 25 mile EV range it is in a Prius Prime.

I hope Subaru has a wildly successful first PHEV (and truth be told, I admire that company a lot), but I am not feeling optimistic.
I think 20 miles AER will be acceptable (covers the round-trip commute of ~50% of U.S. drivers), and it should be able to make that. While more would be preferable, it's an inevitable trade-off between cost, weight, efficiency (on ICE and battery) and interior volume. It's bad enough that the Crosstrek hybrid lost its (compact) spare tire, as many Subaru owners are loathe to accept that as we're often far off the beaten track, and for me personally and I imagine many others we want a full size spare; that's one reason I chose the Forester over the Outback and Legacy wagons, as it came with a full size spare that fit in the well. I dread the thought of having to swap tires front to rear in snow if I need chains.

As I don't commute by car, for me the basic standard for PHEV AER is that it should be able to do the 14 mile loop around Yosemite Valley while providing heat/defrost in winter (or A/C in summer, but I don't go into the Valley during summer). This would also suffice for Zion Canyon, Arches etc. The population density is low enough outside the few built-up areas in major parks that running the ICE isn't a major local pollution issue most of the time, although I'd obviously like to minimize that. As an example, a 53 mile AER Volt 2 can probably do the 40 miles/2,400' of climb from Crane Flat to Tuolumne Meadows on the battery, possibly with heat/defrost, and might under ideal conditions make it another 6.7 miles/+1,341' to Tioga Pass, but compared to a Prime it sacrifices a lot of Hwy mpg, and on the typical road trip many of us take the Volt would use more gas than a Prime. With less AER I'd be forced to use it more tactically, making use of Hold mode except when I'm in areas with more people (Big Oak Flat entrance station, Crane Flat, Olmstead Point, Tenaya Lake, Tuolumne Meadows).

Which you'd prefer depends on whether you're primary focus is local or global emissions, although the Prime wouldn't work for me owing to its lack of a true hold mode - I want to be able to control when and where to emit as above. We'll see if Subaru provides one. Which reminds me, I'm going to send them an email asking for it [and I just did].
 
GRA said:
the Prime wouldn't work for me owing to its lack of a true hold mode - I want to be able to control when and where to emit as above.
Are you sure about that ?
 
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