Valdemar
Posts: 2583
Joined: Tue May 10, 2011 10:32 pm
Delivery Date: 09 Sep 2011
Location: Oak Park, CA

Re: Kia Niro BEV

Wed Jan 30, 2019 2:57 pm

This would be a car that I could live with. Too bad my 2011 just keeps on going :)
'11 SL, totaled
-1CB@33k/21mo, -2CB@53k/33mo, -3CB@68k/41mo, -4CB(41.5AHr)@79k/49mo, -5CB(38.85AHr)@87.5k/54mo
-0CB(66.14AHr)@87.5k/54mo (BBB), -1CB(53.92Ahr)@140k/29mo,
51.1AHr, SOH 80%, 150k miles

9kW Solar

Leaf15
Posts: 139
Joined: Sat Jun 09, 2018 6:51 am
Delivery Date: 09 Jun 2018
Location: Pennsylvania, USA

Re: Kia Niro BEV

Wed Jan 30, 2019 6:54 pm

If you are waiting for Kona or Niro, I would make a small suggestion not to expect anything similar to Ionic manners. There is a reason why Ionic is priced pretty close to Kona despite the fact Kona has 62kWh battery vs. 28 kWh on Ionic.

Ionic was designed from different standpoint, actually it is opposite of everything ever done with EV - Hyundai severely over provisioned battery to the level that makes driving experience as normal, if not better than, ICE car without any drama and additionally, thanks to super efficiency on high speeds and overall high efficiency, Ionics consistently deliver real range well above the expectations and never below even in freezing cold weather @ 65mph. Another factor is lifetime warranty on all Ionic batteries - they covered their bases for sure. Bigger battery also allows to charge quickly without any noticeable taper within limits of exposed/usable capacity.

On other hand Kona and Niro both designed and marketed exactly as all other EVs currently on the market - the battery capacity marketed as full capacity, so lower capacity would be available to the drivetrain, the drag is too high, so future owners should expect exactly the same thing that happening to other EVs on the market. Expect some drama when getting close to 0% SOC, slower charging rates and early tapering. Highway speeds will eat up advertised range. Pretty much all negative EV experiences will follow them as usual. Nothing wrong with either car, it is just consequence of using common practice in EV marketing.

After experiencing all those awesome EV reality stuff during my 6 months of Leaf ownership, I decided to give Ionic a chance and thanks to lucky circumstances during "extended" test drive I realized - EV ownership could be very positive experience when things are done right. It is early to say, but so far I am not disappointed with Ionic EV. I often refer to it as anti-EV.

EPA should really mandate for EV manufacturers to publish winter range with prolonged highway speed travel (65mph at least) and usable/full battery capacity, just to level play field and prevent outright lies and dirty tactics, as it ruins EV ownership experience.

Just my 2 cents.
Last edited by Leaf15 on Thu Jan 31, 2019 7:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Leaf 2015 SV CPO traded for 2019 Hyundai Ionic Limited

LeftieBiker
Moderator
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Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: Kia Niro BEV

Wed Jan 30, 2019 7:39 pm

EPA should really mandate for EV manufacturers to publish winter range with prolonged highway speed travel (65mph at least) and usable/full battery capacity, just to level play field and prevent outright lies and dirty tactics, as it ruins EV ownership experience.


Agreed.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

KeiJidosha
Gold Member
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Location: Simi Valley, CA

Re: Kia Niro BEV

Thu Jan 31, 2019 12:19 pm

2019 Kia Niro EV First Drive: The New Affordable Long-Range Leader

https://insideevs.com/2019-kia-niro-ev-first-drive/

Image
- 2009 BMW MINI E > 2013 Honda Fit EV > 2017 Chevy Bolt EV
- 2013 Ford C-Max Energi > 2020 Jaguar I-Pace (ordered)

GRA
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Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Kia Niro BEV

Sat Feb 02, 2019 5:50 pm

Hyundai Kona Electric Vs Kia Niro EV, The Autobahn Efficiency Edition
https://insideevs.com/hyundai-kona-electric-vs-kia-niro-ev-autobahn-efficiency-video/

Korean cousins face off in Germany (with subtitles)

The Hyundai Kona Electric and Kia Niro EV (Kia e-Niro in some markets) are two of the most exciting electric vehicles about to hit dealerships in the United States. Potential customers across the country are weighing the two, wondering which might best suit their needs. One metric by which to judge them is efficiency. The video (press CC for English subtitles) above helps us out here, pitting the two all-electric crossovers against each other as they travel more than 400 km (249 miles) on a stretch of the Autobahn highway in Germany. . . .

To set the stage, the vehicles are charged to 97 and 98 percent and are wearing winter tires of the same size. With a bit of distance between them, so neither enjoys the advantage of a slipstream, they use cruise control to maintain a steady 120-kph (75-mile per hour) pace. When they stop for a charge, the results are not what we expect.

The Niro EV appears to be in the lead, having averaged 22.8 kWh/100 km (36.7 kWh/100 miles). The Hyundai Kona Electric, which is a slightly smaller vehicle, counterintuitively saw 23.4 kWh/100 km (37.7 kWh/100 miles) over the same distance. If those consumption figures seem high, we must also take into account the temperature over the journey dipped as low as -7 C (19.4 F).

Interestingly, the charging speeds also show some deviation. When first plugged, the Hyundai indicates it’s accepting power at a rate of 52 kW and will take 53 minutes to reach 80 percent. The Kia, meanwhile, is taking on electricity at 52 kW and with its slightly less-depleted battery will take only 46 minutes to reach 80 percent.

When all was said and done, the Kia Niro EV emerged the victor in this particular contest with a 4-percent edge over the 429 km (267 miles). A surprising result, considering the EPA rates the Kona Electric as the more efficient of the two.

We now look forward to more tests, but in the meantime, if you have a theory for this seeming discrepancy, let us know in Comments.

I assume the Niro has a better Cd, which would give it the edge at freeway speeds over the Kona. IIRR the EPA range ratings are weighted 55% city/45% hwy, which would give the lighter Kona a boost. Still, for those of us more interested in the larger Niro than the Kona for road trips, while the difference is small it's encouraging.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
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Re: Kia Niro BEV

Sun Feb 03, 2019 5:13 pm

engadget:
Kia's 2019 Niro EV is an electric crossover for the people
Folks are going to have a heck of a choice between this and the Hyundai Kona EV.
https://www.engadget.com/2019/02/01/kia-2019-niro-ev-electric-crossover-test-drive/

It was bound to happen to EVs eventually. No matter how mind-blowingly, world-changingly incredible an idea starts out, it will invariably reach the realm of the mundane before too long. Just look at smartphones, maglev trains and avocado toast.

But that's not necessarily a bad thing. In fact, it's that vanillaness, that no-nonsense lack of flair, that makes the Kia Niro EV so great. I'll tell you right now: it's not going to turn heads (even when I honked), nor is it going to smoke sports cars off the starting line (unless you have a head start). What it is going to to do is get you, your friends and all of your gear where you're going in relative comfort and safety without stomping all over your budget. . . .

The Kia team couldn't reveal pricing options for the Niro EV just yet, though they strongly suggested that it would be on par with Hyundai's offering. That's going to leave a lot of potential EV customers with a difficult choice on their hands. The vehicles share similar powertrain specs, though the Kona has a 20-mile advantage on range. On the other hand, the Kona's center console looks like the helm from a Star Trek spinoff, which will likely be rather jarring to not-so-tech-savvy drivers. The Niro EV's far more closely resembles the instrument clusters of existing vehicles, which means new owners will have more time to dig into, say, the various driver assist features rather than figuring out where the electronic parking brake release switch is.

The Niro EV isn't trying to be fancy, is what I'm getting at. It's not promising you Grizzly Adams backwoods adventures like the Rivian or admittance to the cool kids table like Tesla. It's not even positioning itself as a luxury sports toy like the Audi E-Tron. No, the Kia Niro EV is meat and potatoes. It's the people's EV -- a sleeper that will surprise you with its utility and value.

They've built a BEV Subaru wagon! Without the AWD, unfortunately, but I'm referring to the design intent.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
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Re: Kia Niro BEV

Mon Feb 04, 2019 7:35 pm

GCR:
2019 Kia Niro EV: first drive of 239-mile electric crossover
https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1121294_2019-kia-niro-ev-first-drive-of-239-mile-electric-crossover

. . . Climate context

In all fairness, the drive was in mild temperatures of 55 to 64 degrees—approaching the sweet spot for today’s lithium-ion cells. We’re eager to see what the Niro returns in colder climates, using the heater, defroster, and warmers.

Cars sold in California won’t come with a heat pump. But those nearly everywhere else in the U.S. will come with a winter package that includes a heated steering wheel, a heat pump system, and battery warming. . . .

I hope that's not accurate. I emailed Kia the following:
Some months ago, I sent you an email pointing out that heat pumps should be offered or better yet standard in California, given our climate which rarely sees temps below the teens,allowing us to use more of the battery's capacity to boost range instead of for HVAC use. This is critical for road trips, especially ski trips. I was happy to read awhile back the following claim:

"According to Kia, the North American version of the 2019 Niro EV will come standard with a heat pump to more efficiently assist with cabin heating and the dedicated battery heater will be an optional feature. In the 2020 Soul EV, both the heat pump and battery heater are listed as optional features."

I've just read a review of the Niro EV on Green Car Reports which contradicts that, stating the following: "Cars sold in California won’t come with a heat pump. But those nearly everywhere else in the U.S. will come with a winter package that includes a heated steering wheel, a heat pump system, and battery warming."

Which is correct? If the GCR report is true, you will be forcing CA buyers who intend to take cold-weather road trips to try and buy cars in Oregon. Alternatively, they'll decide it's not worth the hassle and look elsewhere.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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TomT
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Re: Kia Niro BEV

Tue Feb 05, 2019 8:18 am

It kind of makes sense... With some notable exceptions, California needs cooling more then heating, and heat pumps are less efficient at cooling unless you spring for an expensive proportioning valve in the design...

GRA wrote:Cars sold in California won’t come with a heat pump. But those nearly everywhere else in the U.S. will come with a winter package that includes a heated steering wheel, a heat pump system, and battery warming.
Leaf SL 2011 to 2016, Volt Premier 2016 to 2019, and now:
2019 Model 3; LR, RWD, FSD, 19" Sport Wheels, silver/black; built 3/17/19, delivered 3/29/19.

GRA
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Re: Kia Niro BEV

Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:58 pm

TomT wrote:It kind of makes sense... With some notable exceptions, California needs cooling more then heating, and heat pumps are less efficient at cooling unless you spring for an expensive proportioning valve in the design...

GRA wrote:Cars sold in California won’t come with a heat pump. But those nearly everywhere else in the U.S. will come with a winter package that includes a heated steering wheel, a heat pump system, and battery warming.

I disagree. Fall, winter and spring in Northern California (and summer in S.F. and along the central/north coasts) are ideal temps for heat pumps to maximize their efficiency gain compared to resistive heating, as the temps are virtually never below the mid-teens (usually much higher), and that only at altitude, e.g. it's 17 degrees at South Lake Tahoe and Truckee right now (5:45 p.m.). Even on ski trips, those temps are normally only encountered more than 130 miles out from the Bay Area. Last night, we got snow on the hills around the Bay, which happens once every couple of years: https://www.sfgate.com/weather/article/snow-San-Francisco-Bay-Area-snowfall-photos-13590570.php#item-85307-tbla-50 At my place ca. 100 feet el., the low was 37 early this morning, and nowhere in the Bay Area (not even the sheltered valleys) was it below the mid-20s IIRR. In Sacramento, 17 was the lowest temp ever recorded (going back to 1878). You've got to get up to around 2,000 feet today to find snow on the way to the ski areas.

If Kia doesn't want to make them standard here, okay, but at least make them optional for those who know they will benefit.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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TomT
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Re: Kia Niro BEV

Wed Feb 06, 2019 12:40 pm

When I was living in southern CA I almost never used the heater but used the AC quite a bit... I was ahead without a heat pump.

GRA wrote:Cars sold in California won’t come with a heat pump. But those nearly everywhere else in the U.S. will come with a winter package that includes a heated steering wheel, a heat pump system, and battery warming.
Leaf SL 2011 to 2016, Volt Premier 2016 to 2019, and now:
2019 Model 3; LR, RWD, FSD, 19" Sport Wheels, silver/black; built 3/17/19, delivered 3/29/19.

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