Volt vs Prius drivetrains

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garygid

garygid

Well-known member
Joined
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Messages
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Laguna Hills, Orange Co, CA
Apparently the Volt has both serial and parallel hybrid operating modes, similar to the Prius.

I believe you can buy a Volt now, from many dealers, but have to search for one at MSRP.
 
SanDust said:
Not exactly sure why you'd say the Volt is "a hybrid" as if that's a bad thing. The Volt may be a hybrid but it's a SERIAL hybrid not a PARALLEL hybrid. Big difference.
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OT, but, both Prius & Volt have planetary gear arrangement (as do the Ford hybrids) - so they are what you would call serial/parallel. The main difference is that Volt is designed to operate in EV mode even at max speed and at much higher power needs.
 
evnow said:
Prius & Volt have planetary gear arrangement (as do the Ford hybrids) - so they are what you would call serial/parallel. The main difference is that Volt is designed to operate in EV mode even at max speed and at much higher power needs.
Click to expand...

Right. As it was explained to me, the key difference is that the Volt has "full performance" just on EV. If the battery is charged, the engine will not start no matter how you drive. So if you keep the battery charged, it should only very rarely start the engine.

It's only when the engine is already running to charge the battery (CS mode) that the engine mechanically drives the drivetrain at highway speeds.
The Plug-In Prius is different -- it needs the engine running to hit top speed.

Does this agree with your understanding of how the Volt works? (I confess I haven't followed it closely)


Really, my disappointment was more that the two weren't *completely* dissociated (100% serial hybrid) so enterprising hackers could replace the ICE with something else -- bigger batteries, fuel cells, etc. With the mechanical interaction between ICE and drivetrain, it would take more work. But practically speaking, it makes no difference.
 
Solarexec,

"My wife put it simply: “this does not have the creature comforts you would expect of a $35,000+ car.”

The Leaf is not a $35,000 car. It is a $17,000 Versa, with $18,000 worth of electronics...mostly battery.

I am amazed that anyone would consider buying an EV, and compare it to an ICE vehicle. That is like complaining that the moon lander didn't have a stewardess.

I have wanted an EV for 35 years, for many reasons. My buddy in NY state ordered his in May...he'll end up waiting one and a half to two years. I fooled around until July. With luck, I won't have to wait much more than a year. Am I disappointed in Nissan's incompetence, and obfuscation? Absolutely! But they are the only corporation to offer a practical EV so far.

The Leaf is not the EV I want...too big...too many seats...not aerodynamic enough. However, it is the only EV I can afford....and that is after the tax credit!

I will be leasing for three years. At that point, either batteries will have improved, and many more EV options will be available, or Americans will once again have turn their backs on the future.

Warren
 
DarkStar said:
GroundLoop said:
The Plug-In Prius is different -- it needs the engine running to hit top speed.
Click to expand...
The Plug-In Prius will go up to 62 mph on all electric, no engine necessary! :)
Click to expand...
62mph will get you half-way up an on-ramp here in San Diego before you're run over.

The key difference between Volt and Prius is that you can drain all the gas out of a Volt, charge the battery, go romp around at full-throttle and 90mph and get home before the battery dies. The car won't start the engine (until the fuel-stale timeout or whatever periodic maint it does.)

The Prius, it seems, will use fuel on every commute, charged or not.

Anyway, I'm just working through the mental gymnastics of justifying a Volt, even though it has a gas tank. :) I really want a full EV, though. Maintaining a Volt engine could get expensive.
 
Warren said:
I am amazed that anyone would consider buying an EV, and compare it to an ICE vehicle. That is like complaining that the moon lander didn't have a stewardess.
Click to expand...

Just so. We have a car that runs on electricity from the sun. A CAR that runs on ELECTRICITY!!! FROM THE SUN! What the what!?!??! It's a freaking miracle. It's not for everyone, and that's fine (until it isn't, but we're not there yet).

...many more EV options will be available, or Americans will once again have turn their backs on the future.
Click to expand...

I remain hopeful. I'll become more hopeful when even a fraction of the pubic infrastructure becomes something other than vaporware.
 
Warren said:
Solarexec,

"My wife put it simply: “this does not have the creature comforts you would expect of a $35,000+ car.”
Click to expand...

What creature comforts is it lacking?

I was so impressed with the quietness of the Leaf I fear that once I have one for a while it would spoil me for anything else. Like watching regular TV after you've gotten used to HD. The ride home from the event (in what many would call a luxury car) seemed like stepping back to some sort of antique.
 
GroundLoop said:
The key difference between Volt and Prius is that you can drain all the gas out of a Volt, charge the battery, go romp around at full-throttle and 90mph and get home before the battery dies. The car won't start the engine (until the fuel-stale timeout or whatever periodic maint it does.)
Click to expand...

Are you certain of that? I thought I read (or rather I know I read, but am not sure it is true) that the Volt won't operate at all without some gas in the tank. And further that you can get it to fire the engine even with "plenty" of charge remaining if you goose it hard enough. Maybe that's disinformation in which case I apologize for propagating it but based on the descriptions of the drivetrain I would not be completely surprised if it is true.
 
wsbca said:
GroundLoop said:
The key difference between Volt and Prius is that you can drain all the gas out of a Volt, charge the battery, go romp around at full-throttle and 90mph and get home before the battery dies. The car won't start the engine (until the fuel-stale timeout or whatever periodic maint it does.)
Click to expand...

Are you certain of that? I thought I read (or rather I know I read, but am not sure it is true) that the Volt won't operate at all without some gas in the tank. And further that you can get it to fire the engine even with "plenty" of charge remaining if you goose it hard enough. Maybe that's disinformation in which case I apologize for propagating it but based on the descriptions of the drivetrain I would not be completely surprised if it is true.
Click to expand...
I'm not sure either. There may be some checks that compel some gas ...

But Volt will run the engine under some other conditions too
- Needs to warm the battery (so this would happen regularly on a drive in cold weather)
- High power requirement (claimbing a mountain at high speed)
- Mountain mode is being used in which case the engine comes on earlier

So, except for the first condition above others are rather niche conditions. Even the first would be a rare condition in the west - and unlikely in AZ / SoCal.
 
SanDust said:
You could put a range extender on a Leaf and make it a serial hybrid and it wouldn't be any less of an EV.
yes, it would... I love the "If it has a muffler and tail pipe it's not an EV" If you put an engine in the Leaf it would be a hybrid, not an EV..maybe a GREAT ONE! and maybe one that would sell even better than the Leaf, but let's support proper terminology!
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
evnow said:
OT, but, both Prius & Volt have planetary gear arrangement (as do the Ford hybrids) - so they are what you would call serial/parallel. The main difference is that Volt is designed to operate in EV mode even at max speed and at much higher power needs.
Click to expand...
To some extent this is on-topic because one reason to get a Volt is that it will be significantly more efficient at higher speeds. The planetary gearset is a big part of why it will be.

Just as background, the planetary gearset has nothing to do whether a vehicle is a hybrid. Plenty of hybrids don't have a planetary gearset and, conversely, an ICE vehicle can use one in lieu of a transmission -- the Model T did this over 100 years ago. The planetary gearsets used by Ford and Toyota have nothing to do with the one used by the Volt any more than they do with that used by the Model T. Completely different setups for completely different purposes.

The Volt uses a planetary gearset because it's more efficient than using a simple step down gear like you find on the Leaf. With a step down gear, as you increase the speed of the vehicle the motor has to spin faster and faster. This is inefficient. To address this problem, at high speeds and under harder accelerations the Volt allows the smaller motor-generator to engage with the ring gear. This means that two motors are now providing torque, allowing the traction motor to turn at a lower and more efficient speed. If GM makes a pure EV, especially a higher end one, expect to see the same gearing. In essence GM has solved the "transmission problem" which befuddled Tesla's engineers. The solution is so simple and so elegant that there are probably a thousand engineers sitting around and asking themselves: "Why didn't I think of that?". (Note that while you'll get better performance, more efficiency, and higher regen, the two motor planetary gearset requires two motors and is therefore more expensive).
 
wsbca said:
Are you certain of that? I thought I read (or rather I know I read, but am not sure it is true) that the Volt won't operate at all without some gas in the tank.
Click to expand...
This is backwards actually. The Volt will run just fine with zero gas in the tank as long as the battery is not flat and is otherwise working. It won't however run if the gas tank if full and the battery is not working (a non-working battery is not the same as a flat battery). IOW opposite of the Prius.
 
Can't we lock this post.
I really do not care why someone canceled there order we could have one of these post every day could we not?
 
SanDust said:
This is backwards actually. The Volt will run just fine with zero gas in the tank as long as the battery is not flat and is otherwise working. It won't however run if the gas tank if full and the battery is not working (a non-working battery is not the same as a flat battery). IOW opposite of the Prius.
Click to expand...
Theoretically you are right. But we don't know implementation wise. BTW, what happens on a cold day ?

BTW, if the battery is dead, IIRC, Prius won't run either, right ? Or that just the 12V battery ?
 
SanDust said:
The planetary gearsets used by Ford and Toyota have nothing to do with the one used by the Volt any more than they do with that used by the Model T. Completely different setups for completely different purposes.
...
... In essence GM has solved the "transmission problem" which befuddled Tesla's engineers. The solution is so simple and so elegant that there are probably a thousand engineers sitting around and asking themselves: "Why didn't I think of that?". (Note that while you'll get better performance, more efficiency, and higher regen, the two motor planetary gearset requires two motors and is therefore more expensive).
Click to expand...
While we acknowledge your fondness for GM and Volt - it is a stretch to say the arrangement of planetary gear in Prius & Volt are completely different.

The planetary gear for power splitting was patented a long time back. Toyota was the first to make use of it - and there have been some infringement cases and settlements after that. Ford, ofcourse, came up with similar arrangement and decided to cross license Toyota's patents. I'm doing a story on that for my Energi blog ...

What GM engineers did was to make the arrangement different enough that toyota's patents don't apply. So the differences are more as likely to be for legal purposes as any engineering reason ...
 
My understanding (from a Volt driver) is that this is not actually true:
- High power requirement (claimbing a mountain at high speed)
Click to expand...

The gas engine never needs to kick in to provide a power boost.

The gear connection between ICE and wheels only engages when the ICE would have been running anyway to sustain charge. In this way, they directly couple mechanically to avoid the charge/discharge conversion losses. If the battery is fully charged, no amount of high power requirement will start the engine. So he says.. I was surprised.

The Prius is different -- it needs the engine running to get the full performance using ICE+Electric.
 
GroundLoop said:
The gear connection between ICE and wheels only engages when the ICE would have been running anyway to sustain charge. In this way, they directly couple mechanically to avoid the charge/discharge conversion losses. If the battery is fully charged, no amount of high power requirement will start the engine. So he says.. I was surprised.
Click to expand...
I might be misremembering - but who says that ?
 
evnow said:
GroundLoop said:
The gear connection between ICE and wheels only engages when the ICE would have been running anyway to sustain charge. In this way, they directly couple mechanically to avoid the charge/discharge conversion losses. If the battery is fully charged, no amount of high power requirement will start the engine. So he says.. I was surprised.
Click to expand...
I might be misremembering - but who says that ?
Click to expand...
My Volt-driving coworker.
 

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