Toyota Video of my PHV Prius Test Drive

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efusco

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Earlier this week I was invited by Toyota to come to a "Toyota Meets the Prius Experts" forum in Torrence, CA where, among other things, I had an opportunity for a fairly extended test drive of one of the 75 PHV Prius currently in the US (150 total expected for the prototype testing within the next month).

http://video.ak.facebook.com/cfs-ak-ash1/27654/43/120224228002652_19081.mp4
 
efusco said:
Earlier this week I was invited by Toyota to come to a "Toyota Meets the Prius Experts" forum in Torrence, CA where, among other things, I had an opportunity for a fairly extended test drive of one of the 75 PHV Prius currently in the US (150 total expected for the prototype testing within the next month).

http://video.ak.facebook.com/cfs-ak-ash1/27654/43/120224228002652_19081.mp4

That was cool.

How much battery does it have ? I remember reading about two types of battery ...
 
evnow said:
efusco said:
Earlier this week I was invited by Toyota to come to a "Toyota Meets the Prius Experts" forum in Torrence, CA where, among other things, I had an opportunity for a fairly extended test drive of one of the 75 PHV Prius currently in the US (150 total expected for the prototype testing within the next month).

http://video.ak.facebook.com/cfs-ak-ash1/27654/43/120224228002652_19081.mp4

That was cool.

How much battery does it have ? I remember reading about two types of battery ...
5.2kWh
Toyota rates the EV range at 13 miles. I went about 9 miles in EV/charge depletion mode before exceeding 65mph on the hwy and the ice kicking in, I had a little EV range left after that. Others drove a pure "city route" and got over 15 miles.

Prototype battery pack is a LiION main HV pack, and two LiION EV sub-packs. Charging charges the main pack first (to run ECUs), then each sub-pack separately, then tops off the main pack at the end of the cycle. It is 345.6V vs 201.6V in the Gen III. It can be charged from standard 110V in about 3 hours currently with plans to have a 220V that'll cut the time in half.
 
I guess it is between 3 to 4 kwh. Have they managed to hide the battery and not occupy any cargo/visible space ?
 
Hey Evan, great video! Thanks for posting. Good video on you too! It was actually nice to see the Prius do so well under EV only.
 
nice Evan, I just wish it was being released before 2012.
I might be inclinded to get it if it was sooner, or had a little more EV range (like 20 miles highway).
 
mitch672 said:
nice Evan, I just wish it was being released before 2012.
I might be inclinded to get it if it was sooner, or had a little more EV range (like 20 miles highway).
I, too, wish it was coming out a bit sooner and would prefer a 20 mile EV range. The 13 mile pack is a prototype and Toyota has not said that it will be the final design. While I had their ears to bend I made my push for a longer range pack for those of us who want it even if the price is a bit higher.
 
Personally, I'm surprised Toyota has been so far behind in the game of plug-in hybrids. After all, they already have the cars designed and on the roads for years. You'd think adding a plug-in option wouldn't take that much extra development time. I would expect them to beat GM and Nissan to the release date. But it appears Toyota is not in a hurry for some reason.

As for the range. I sort of wish they'd have two versions.. Maybe one with a shorter range that was cheaper with the option to add the extra battery pack in the future, and the fully-loaded with a longer range. The longer range should be well over 20 miles.

Yeah, I'm failing to see the usefulness of 12 miles range for most people. Granted, it would work for me because my daily commute is about 10 miles. But I am the exception, I believe. My wife drives 40 miles a day, round trip. So even if she could plug-in at work, she'd still be driving 16 miles a day on gasoline. Without plugging in at work (which is more likely) she'd be driving 28 miles a day on gasoline. CHevy got it right, a 40 mile range is just about perfect for a plug-in hybrid. And Nissan got it right with the pure-electric range of 100. That is enough to go to work and back and then a few more places if needed.
 
Toyota didn't consider the possibility of federal rebate. Not a large one in any case.

GM got the law written so that Volt would get the full benefit of the rebate - the cut of is exactly what Volt has. Toyota was sleeping at the wheels - and protested when the law passed. But the deed was done.

So, now Toyota is at a stage where its 13 mile PHEV might cost more than 40 mile Volt EREV after the rebate.
 
Might Toyota still be trying to figure out how to use 80% of the battery (instead of 40% as in the 2010 Prius) and still get the long life that a hybrid needs in CA?

Perhaps the learning curve with using a new battery chemistry is slow?
 
garygid said:
Might Toyota still be trying to figure out how to use 80% of the battery (instead of 40% as in the 2010 Prius) and still get the long life that a hybrid needs in CA?

Perhaps the learning curve with using a new battery chemistry is slow?


Toyota has "stated" that they think the Lion is not up to snuff yet and they have large vested interests in their existing pack technologies. Who knows, they may drop an EV bomb like the Prius, think of that announcement happening at he end of the year. Or perhaps they have multiple EV developments (likely) like Daimler has for years and they are nimble enough to react to what happens with Nissan and others. Please Toyota, build a "city" EV in the Think or MINI size!
 
evnow said:
Toyota didn't consider the possibility of federal rebate. Not a large one in any case.

GM got the law written so that Volt would get the full benefit of the rebate - the cut of is exactly what Volt has. Toyota was sleeping at the wheels - and protested when the law passed. But the deed was done.

So, now Toyota is at a stage where its 13 mile PHEV might cost more than 40 mile Volt EREV after the rebate.
As you probably know, it's a tax credit, not a rebate. And you may not have meant this, but you make it sound like there is a cutoff at 16kWh, so that smaller batteries get nothing. There is indeed a (rather unfair) limit at 16kWh, but it is a maximum, rather than a minimum. That's why the Leaf doesn't get any more than the Volt even though the Leaf battery is 50% larger. But the real cutoff point is much lower, at 4kWh. Less than that, you get nothing. More than that you get something scaled between $2500 and $7500. If the PHV Prius has 5.2kWh, the credit should be about $3000.

Certainly not as good as $7500, but nothing to sneeze at. Whether a $4500 difference would make the Prius as expensive as the Volt remains to be seen, since we don't know the price for either. But my guess is that there is likely to be more like an $8K differential in prices. (Wild guess: $37.5K to $29.5K for base models)
 
planet4ever said:
But the real cutoff point is much lower, at 4kWh. Less than that, you get nothing. More than that you get something scaled between $2500 and $7500. If the PHV Prius has 5.2kWh, the credit should be about $3000.

Thats right. What I meant by cutoff was the minimum battery size you need to get maximum credit - 16kwh. It is no coincidence that Volt has exactly 16kwh battery.

Certainly not as good as $7500, but nothing to sneeze at. Whether a $4500 difference would make the Prius as expensive as the Volt remains to be seen, since we don't know the price for either. But my guess is that there is likely to be more like an $8K differential in prices. (Wild guess: $37.5K to $29.5K for base models)

I think Volt will come in cheaper to compete with Leaf - may be $35K.

The credit difference is $4.5K for a difference of 11 kwh battery difference. The question would be how much does 11kwh battery cost ? I'd say 11kwh is doable with $4.5K - or may be $5.5K.

Would you much rather have a PHEV with 13 mile range for $26K or a one with 40 mile range for $27K ?
 
Toyota's real issue here, is the tax credit expires 12/31/2011, and, they are not scheduled to introduce their Plug in Prius until sometime in calendar year 2012 (not model year 2012), so unless they step up the introduction date, there may be no rebate at all for the Plug in Prius. All the more reason I am still going with the Leaf :)

http://www.afdc.energy.gov/afdc/laws/law/US/409

"Qualified Plug-In Electric Drive Motor Vehicle Tax Credit
A tax credit is available for the purchase of a new qualified plug-in electric drive motor vehicle that draws propulsion using a traction battery that has at least four kilowatt hours of capacity, uses an external source of energy to recharge the battery, has a gross vehicle weight rating of up to 14,000 pounds, and meets specified emission standards. The minimum credit amount is $2,500, and the credit may be up to $7,500, based on each vehicle's traction battery capacity and the gross vehicle weight rating. The credit will begin to be phased out for each manufacturer in the second quarter following the calendar quarter in which a minimum of 200,000 qualified plug-in electric drive vehicles have been sold by that manufacturer for use in the U.S. This tax credit applies to vehicles acquired after December 31, 2009. Through December 31, 2011, qualified plug-in electric vehicle conversions are also eligible for a tax credit for 10% of the conversion cost, not to exceed $4,000. Additionally, a tax credit of up to 10% of the cost of qualified low-speed electric vehicles, electric motorcycles, and three-wheeled electric vehicles, not to exceed $2,500, is available through December 31, 2011. (Reference Public Law 111-5, Sections 1141-1144, and 26 U.S. Code 30D)

Point of Contact
U.S. Internal Revenue Service
Phone: (800) 829-1040
http://www.irs.gov/"
 
No doubt the credit will be extended. Credits are easy to do in congress, appropriations not so much. That is why credits are much easier than rebates.
 
evnow said:
No doubt the credit will be extended. Credits are easy to do in congress, appropriations not so much. That is why credits are much easier than rebates.

No doubt? We have no idea what the political climate will be like in mid 2011, they may see no reason to extend the credit beyond 12/31/2011. They have not always extended credits, especially for such a large amount of money, Obama is going to need every penny the way they are spending money we don't have :(
 
mitch672 said:
No doubt? We have no idea what the political climate will be like in mid 2011, they may see no reason to extend the credit beyond 12/31/2011. They have not always extended credits, especially for such a large amount of money, Obama is going to need every penny the way they are spending money we don't have :(

Profligacy is bipartisan in DC. Anyway, why single out Obama - it is not as if Bush was fiscally restrained. BTW, this EV tax credit was passed during Bush era.

ps : The subsidy on EVs is very small compared to the subsidy on Oil.
 
http://www.allcarselectric.com/blog/1044960_why-cant-toyotas-plug-in-prius-recharge-its-larger-battery

It's a modified Prius with a larger 5-kilowatt-hour lithium-ion battery pack that recharges on wall current, giving up to 12 miles of electric range at speeds as high as 62 miles per hour. The pack is, in fact, three packs: a main one plus two sub-packs.

Toyota has built 600 Prius Plug-In Hybrid prototypes. We'll see 150 of them in the U.S., with 200 to be deployed in Europe. The U.S. cars are now being distributed to the fleets that will test them over the next year.

Last month, we test-drove a 2012 Prius Plug-In Hybrid prototype. And we were shocked to learn that it does not use regenerative braking to recharge the two extra battery packs that provide the added electric range.

It sounds like a "hack"/"patch".
 
evnow said:
http://www.allcarselectric.com/blog/1044960_why-cant-toyotas-plug-in-prius-recharge-its-larger-battery

It's a modified Prius with a larger 5-kilowatt-hour lithium-ion battery pack that recharges on wall current, giving up to 12 miles of electric range at speeds as high as 62 miles per hour. The pack is, in fact, three packs: a main one plus two sub-packs.

Toyota has built 600 Prius Plug-In Hybrid prototypes. We'll see 150 of them in the U.S., with 200 to be deployed in Europe. The U.S. cars are now being distributed to the fleets that will test them over the next year.

Last month, we test-drove a 2012 Prius Plug-In Hybrid prototype. And we were shocked to learn that it does not use regenerative braking to recharge the two extra battery packs that provide the added electric range.

It sounds like a "hack"/"patch".
That information was incorrect, all 3 packs can charge via regen. The chart below shows the up and down of charge/discharge during driving.
4599232514_8113759343_o.jpg
 
efusco said:
That information was incorrect, all 3 packs can charge via regen. The chart below shows the up and down of charge/discharge during driving.

I guess once a battery gets to 20% and "disconnects" it can't be used during regen ?

In anyway, I don't really understand the need to for 3 packs, instead of one. Also 13-15 miles out of a 5 kwh battery sounds less.
 
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