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So did the Mini-E not include an option to charge from a standard 110V / 15 amp outlet? As it stands right now, I hope very much I will not have to buy a quick-charger for my Leaf. I'm going to do everything I can to get out of it. With my 10 mile per day commute, I just see no need for it. I should be able to recharge my Leaf in a few hours even on a regular 110V outlet which I am already using for my Plug-in Prius. On the off-chance I need to drive further on some day which drains the battery down very low, I am sure I could still get enough charge overnight to cover my 10 miles for the next day.
 
adric22 said:
So did the Mini-E not include an option to charge from a standard 110V / 15 amp outlet? As it stands right now, I hope very much I will not have to buy a quick-charger for my Leaf. I'm going to do everything I can to get out of it. With my 10 mile per day commute, I just see no need for it. I should be able to recharge my Leaf in a few hours even on a regular 110V outlet which I am already using for my Plug-in Prius. On the off-chance I need to drive further on some day which drains the battery down very low, I am sure I could still get enough charge overnight to cover my 10 miles for the next day.


You will not need to since Nissan does not offer one, it is not a charger its a safety interlock device. NOT a charger. Learnings from the Mini should be looked at with a critical eye, it is a conversion that was done quickly, not a factory EV. Also the MINI is a heavy car for it's size to start, 2600 lbs, not a good conversion candidate from an efficiency standpoint.
 
I think it's important to note some of the concerns about Building Departments not being prepared for issuing EVSE permits. Considering cutbacks in many Bldg. Depts. regulations could take months to put in place. I've contacted my local Bldg. Dept. Director now to ask if they regs in place, and if they are prepared to process permits for the charger installation.

Elsewhere, I read that PG&E in Calif. offers reduced rates for EV charging, however it requires a second meter. Apparently, many cities don't allow a second meter at single family homes due to the fear that everyone will start converting their garages to illegal rental units. I've also inquired with my Bldg. Dept. whether they have restrictions on second meters for this purpose. If they do have a restriction, I think it would make sense to offer an exception for EV owners, and condition the exception on the installation of the EVSE.
 
cinmar said:
I think it's important to note some of the concerns about Building Departments not being prepared for issuing EVSE permits. Considering cutbacks in many Bldg. Depts. regulations could take months to put in place. I've contacted my local Bldg. Dept. Director now to ask if they regs in place, and if they are prepared to process permits for the charger installation.

Elsewhere, I read that PG&E in Calif. offers reduced rates for EV charging, however it requires a second meter. Apparently, many cities don't allow a second meter at single family homes due to the fear that everyone will start converting their garages to illegal rental units. I've also inquired with my Bldg. Dept. whether they have restrictions on second meters for this purpose. If they do have a restriction, I think it would make sense to offer an exception for EV owners, and condition the exception on the installation of the EVSE.


Supposedly EV friendly SF will not allow a second meter even though PGE will. You nailed it and its an stupid junction box on the wall, very complicated-LOL
 
cinmar, in San Diego you can have a second meter if you are on the EV-TOU rate. But, you must submit proof of ownership of an EV once a year.
 
Dav said:
cinmar, in San Diego you can have a second meter if you are on the EV-TOU rate. But, you must submit proof of ownership of an EV once a year.

The whole second-meter thing is pretty bizarre. PG&E has been rolling out smartmeters everywhere. It seems to me that a billing software change to a different rate structure between say midnight and 6AM, while retaining the current structure at other times, could work for everybody including PG&E. It would eliminate the need for hacking up a perfectly good service entry to add a second meter for basically no reason.

Where I live, we have all undergrounded service entry lines, and flush mount panels surrounded by stucco. It's a bit of an expensive ordeal to add the second meter, including a day or two without power in the home.
 
DeaneG said:
Dav said:
cinmar, in San Diego you can have a second meter if you are on the EV-TOU rate. But, you must submit proof of ownership of an EV once a year.

The whole second-meter thing is pretty bizarre. PG&E has been rolling out smartmeters everywhere. It seems to me that a billing software change to a different rate structure between say midnight and 6AM, while retaining the current structure at other times, could work for everybody including PG&E. It would eliminate the need for hacking up a perfectly good service entry to add a second meter for basically no reason.

Where I live, we have all undergrounded service entry lines, and flush mount panels surrounded by stucco. It's a bit of an expensive ordeal to add the second meter, including a day or two without power in the home.


PG&E is messed up beyond belief and their rates are insane. Did you know a second meter charge is over $2200? They just bill a little each month for life. Sounds fair, now that the state requires payment for production they have decided to pay at a lower rate then previously credited, seems fair. I can get billed at a huge TOU rate but I get paid at a super low peak rate.


They used to have a Y splitter for two meters but the new excuse is that there were issues with the adaptor so they can't use them anymore and you need a second box, unless you are in a banned city.
 
cinmar said:
Elsewhere, I read that PG&E in Calif. offers reduced rates for EV charging, however it requires a second meter. Apparently, many cities don't allow a second meter at single family homes due to the fear that everyone will start converting their garages to illegal rental units. I've also inquired with my Bldg. Dept. whether they have restrictions on second meters for this purpose. If they do have a restriction, I think it would make sense to offer an exception for EV owners, and condition the exception on the installation of the EVSE.
No, PG&E doesn't require a second meter to get the reduced rates. They do offer a second meter option if it makes sense for you (and your locality allows it). And it does make sense sometimes, because we're not really talking about reduced rates, but time-adjusted rates. The night-time rate goes down, but the day-time rate goes up ... way up, in some cases. If you switch the whole house to the new rate, and use a lot of AC in the summer, you could go over $500/month just for electricity. If you get a second meter, and just run the Leaf from that, and just charge at night, then you do save money, or at least you can, depending on the extra charges for the second meter.

So, why bother, right? Just stick with what you have. There are two problems with that:

1) In PG&E land we have a tiered structure, like the income tax. The more we use, the more it costs per watt. If we are already using a lot of electricity, the extra 10-24kWh the Leaf pulls per night could easily cost an additional $3-$8 per day.

2) It's not legal. While we are not required to have a second meter, we are required to use the special time-adjusted rate schedule for charging any EV we have. I'm not sure how they are going to enforce that, but I suspect if they see a sudden 500kWh/month jump in your usage, year round, they will get suspicious. And of course if they "give" you a smart meter they will be seeing time-of-day usage patterns whether or not you are paying time-adjusted rates.
 
PG&E actually requires their TOD tariff for EV charging?

Even for charging my motor scooter, or e-motorcycle, or my electric "mobility" chair, or my NEV?

Why do we put up with these one-supplier situations for our critical services?
 
garygid said:
PG&E actually requires their TOD tariff for EV charging?

Even for charging my motor scooter, or e-motorcycle, or my electric "mobility" chair, or my NEV?
Not your mobility chair, I would think. :lol:

This experimental schedule applies to electric service to customers for whom Schedule E-1 applies and who have a currently registered Motor Vehicle, as defined by the California Motor Vehicle Code, which is: 1) a battery electric vehicle (BEV) or plug-in hybrid electric vehicle (PHEV) recharged via a recharging outlet at the customer’s premises; or, 2) a natural gas vehicle (NGV) refueled via a home refueling appliance (HRA) at the customer’s premises. This schedule is required for customers with a BEV or PHEV.

garygid said:
Why do we put up with these one-supplier situations for our critical services?
Thank goodness we managed to defeat Prop 16 last week, despite PG&E spending $50,000,000 to try to cement their monopoly position. That means cities can still choose to run their own utilities, as places like Santa Clara and Sacramento are doing very successfully, to the great envy of PG&E customers nearby.
 
planet4ever said:
Thank goodness we managed to defeat Prop 16 last week, despite PG&E spending $50,000,000 to try to cement their monopoly position. That means cities can still choose to run their own utilities, as places like Santa Clara and Sacramento are doing very successfully, to the great envy of PG&E customers nearby.

Amen to that brother! Likewise with that Mercury Insurance initiative. I think the ignorant masses are finally cottoning on to exactly who is funding these things and what their motivations are. Now if we could only become as cynical about the politicians we keep putting into office - seems like they all end up snuffling around that same corporate trough!
 
Currently Registered Motor Vehicle would include motorcycles, I presume.

Then, my all-electric motorcycle would require ... what?
If it charges on "normal" 120v is it still included in this PG&E tariff "requirement"?

Does SDG&E have similar e-use "restrictions"?
 
PG&E's customer sheet for mandatory EV charging TOU tariffs:

http://www.pge.com/about/environment/pge/electricvehicles/fuelrates/index.shtml

Ignore the rates shown; they are misleading. E9A works off your existing daytime tier so the rates are much higher than shown. E9B avoids the tier problem but requires installation of a second meter which can cost thousands.

It would actually be cheaper for me to forget to tell PG&E that I have an EV, and stay on their regular E1 residential tariff rather than changing to a mandatory E9A or E9B TOU rate. Then I could charge anytime I wanted. Their clean vehicle people admit this. It's a little broken.

The net effect is that charging my Leaf will average out to about the same fuel cost as a 25mpg car.
 
No TOU metering is available around these parts. My local distribution company (Centerpoint) is rolling out smart meters over the next few years, so I suppose that could change, and it will probably depend on who you buy your electricity from. My smart meter is scheduled to be installed in December.

I'm currently paying $0.103/kWh until I change my rate plan or June 2012, whichever comes first :)

I plan to do mostly nighttime charging, but I'll certainly do some daytime charging too... mostly on weekends.
 
planet4ever said:
Thank goodness we managed to defeat Prop 16 last week, despite PG&E ratepayers spending $50,000,000 to try to cement their monopoly position. That means cities can still choose to run their own utilities, as places like Santa Clara and Sacramento are doing very successfully, to the great envy of PG&E customers nearby.
There, fixed that for you. Unfortunately, the sad truth is that YOU as a PG&E customer helped pay that $50M that is now flushed down the drain.

DeaneG said:
It would actually be cheaper for me to forget to tell PG&E that I have an EV, and stay on their regular E1 residential tariff rather than changing to a mandatory E9A or E9B TOU rate. Then I could charge anytime I wanted. Their clean vehicle people admit this. It's a little broken.

The net effect is that charging my Leaf will average out to about the same fuel cost as a 25mpg car.
There is one way to game the system in your favor: Install a PV system big enough to keep you out of the expensive tiers of usage (which is typically anything more than about 300-350kWh/month depending on your location and whether or not you have natural gas supplied to your house, too).

That keeps the cost of any electricity you use around $0.13-0.15/kWh instead of paying the $0.30-0.35/kWh when you go over your baseline.

A PV system will cost about $5-8 per DC watt installed before rebates and tax credits which cut the price down significantly. Your "break-even" point will be somewhere around 7 years if you size the system just big enough. Counter-intuitively, if you build the system to negate ALL of your usage the "break-even" point takes longer because your effective rate goes down.
 
drees said:
planet4ever said:
Thank goodness we managed to defeat Prop 16 last week, despite PG&E ratepayers spending $50,000,000 to try to cement their monopoly position.
There, fixed that for you. Unfortunately, the sad truth is that YOU as a PG&E customer helped pay that $50M that is now flushed down the drain.
Thanks, I approve your change. PG&E disagrees, saying it was their stockholders, not their customers, who paid, but we all know about funny money.

drees said:
DeaneG said:
It would actually be cheaper for me to forget to tell PG&E that I have an EV, and stay on their regular E1 residential tariff rather than changing to a mandatory E9A or E9B TOU rate.
There is one way to game the system in your favor: Install a PV system big enough to keep you out of the expensive tiers of usage
I agree, except for your use of the term "game". This is no game. This is serious action by the residents of our planet to keep it livable. My PV system has produced more than 60 megawatt hours of electricity so far, electricity that PG&E would have generated mostly by burning hydrocarbons. (Yes, I know, only half of PG&E's power comes from hydrocarbons, but most of their marginal generation is from natural gas.)

Postscript: I guess that means I have already produced enough electricity to drive my Leaf about 300,000 miles!
 
planet4ever said:
...Postscript: I guess that means I have already produced enough electricity to drive my Leaf about 300,000 miles!

I'l pay you 15 cents per kWh... have some extra wire lying around here somewhere....hmm...
 
planet4ever said:
My PV system has produced more than 60 megawatt hours of electricity so far, electricity that PG&E would have generated mostly by burning hydrocarbons. (Yes, I know, only half of PG&E's power comes from hydrocarbons, but most of their marginal generation is from natural gas.)

Postscript: I guess that means I have already produced enough electricity to drive my Leaf about 300,000 miles!
Nice though I think your #s are a bit optimistic - my calcs (4mi/kWh) only put you at 240k miles. ;) - my system has only generated about 1.5 MWh so that's only good for 6000 miles.
 
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