How do you explain the Rav4 EV??

The leaf is built from the ground up to be energy efficient etc etc and has the latest battery etc


but how do you explain that a full roomy regular SUV, the RAV 4EV, thats a decade old with a heavier battery (NiMH), can have performences comparable (100 mile range? ) to the Leaf??

how??

(the NiMH are cheaper and so far proven to last, are NiMH underestimated?)
(apparently the NiMH patent Chevron has been hoarding for years expires in 2014)

Well, there are several issues to contend with. First of all, I highly suspect the RAV-4 EV cost much more to produce than the Leaf. So the shear fact that the Leaf was built to be affordable is a big plus. Also there are issues surrounding the legal aspects of NiMh batteries. I don't know the whole story here, but it goes something like this. After GM scrapped their EV-1 program, they sold the patent on the large-scale NiMh batteries to one of the oil companies (Can't remember - Texaco, Chevron, Mobile, one of those..) and now those companies only license the manufacture of batteries for use in electronics or vehicles that get all of their energy from gasoline (IE: a Hybrid like the Prius, Civic, Insight, Camry, etc.) That is why Toyota had to switch to Li-Ion batteries for their Plug-in version of the Prius.

So the whole idea was to prevent companies from making electric cars using the NiMh technology. Of course, all they did was buy themselves an extra 10 years or so, because it looks like Li-Ion is going to take over the industry. Makes me wonder if once they figure this out, that maybe they'll start allowing car companies to use the NiMh and maybe the price will come down on it too.

Oh yeah- Keep in mind the whole battery argument was really just a ploy by auto manufacturers anyway. GM was able to get 80 miles or so out of traditional sealed-lead-acid batteries in their EV-1 before switching to the NiMh.

IceRaven said:

The leaf is built from the ground up to be energy efficient etc etc and has the latest battery etc
..
but how do you explain that a full roomy regular SUV, the RAV 4EV, thats a decade old with a heavier battery (NiMH), can have performences comparable (100 mile range? ) to the Leaf??

Click to expand...

RAV4EV has a 27kwh battery. The extra battery supports the size and form.

The main difference is not performance - but cost. It cost an estimated $200,000 to make each RAV4EV. Leaf costs may be just over a tenth of that cost.

IceRaven said:

The leaf is built from the ground up to be energy efficient etc etc and has the latest battery etc


but how do you explain that a full roomy regular SUV, the RAV 4EV, thats a decade old with a heavier battery (NiMH), can have performences comparable (100 mile range? ) to the Leaf??

how??

(the NiMH are cheaper and so far proven to last, are NiMH underestimated?)
(apparently the NiMH patent Chevron has been hoarding for years expires in 2014)

Click to expand...

The pack is slightly larger and may use more of the capacity and I would bet uses more regen in the city. Regardless of the comparison the Leaf is not exactly an efficient EV, not many people seem to realize this since few people have much experience with EVs and the effect of low weight and aerodynamics, the Leaf is more of a standard car. If I get a Leaf it will be a bridge EV to a more efficient and smaller model like a Think or perhaps a Fiat 500. It is sad the Detroit incompetents messed up Aptera as it could have been a fun, high range, efficient and longer haul EV. I do expect Nissan and Toyota to build small and efficient models in the future with new unibody designs (no heavy truck frames) and use lighter material to reduce weight quite a bit.

My prediction is that there will be a big market for small, sporty performance EVs with a large aftermarket parts following, these will be one or two passenger vehicles for quick trips, city commuting and fun. Sort of an alternative to the motorcycle for everyone, I hope it happens soon and they are already in development



The NiMH were a bridge battery that were never used even though Toyota tried. They are great batteries and even the less desirable Saft flooded Nicads were great. I have a friend that has a pack that is over 20 years old with about 90% capacity and even though they wont tell you it is possible to replace the electrolyte and they can discharge to 100% DOD, that is how you do a maintenance charge! No battery balancing required!

EVDRIVER said:

My prediction is that there will be a big market for small, sporty performance EVs with a large aftermarket parts following, these will be one or two passenger vehicles for quick trips, city commuting and fun. Sort of an alternative to the motorcycle for everyone, I hope it happens soon and they are already in development

Click to expand...

Well, there is a serious problem with this idea. Several serious problems. When people see small cars, they think it should have a small price. And right now I am seeing that it costs about the same to build a smaller EV as it does to build something like the Leaf. In which case, the small EV doesn't make financial sense for the manufacturer.

What I would like to see would be sort of an explosion of small city cars similar to the Th!nk. The issue here again is price. In order for these cars to sell, they need to get the price down under $10,000 and they need to be able to easily achieve 45 mph or better even when going up-hill. The small chinese made electric vehicles in this class I have test-driven tend to cost $12,000 or more and can only do 25 mph (due to legal restrictions) and maybe 15 mph if going up a hill. They would also need to have air-conditioning and other nice features people expect.

I believe this goal could be achieved, but I think it will be many years before it could happen. First people have to accept the idea of electric cars. The Leaf and Volt will help make that possible. Then the price has to come down and infrastructure has to develop. Once those things happen, I think we may see lots of smaller, cheaper electric cars driving around on the streets.

Then back to the original quote, as far as small sports cars.. Yes, once the EV market matures, then there will be enough customers to buy a niche product like a sports car. Right now they have to make the cars appeal to the broadest audience possible.

adric22 said:

EVDRIVER said:

My prediction is that there will be a big market for small, sporty performance EVs with a large aftermarket parts following, these will be one or two passenger vehicles for quick trips, city commuting and fun. Sort of an alternative to the motorcycle for everyone, I hope it happens soon and they are already in development

Click to expand...

Well, there is a serious problem with this idea. Several serious problems. When people see small cars, they think it should have a small price. And right now I am seeing that it costs about the same to build a smaller EV as it does to build something like the Leaf. In which case, the small EV doesn't make financial sense for the manufacturer.

What I would like to see would be sort of an explosion of small city cars similar to the Th!nk. The issue here again is price. In order for these cars to sell, they need to get the price down under $10,000 and they need to be able to easily achieve 45 mph or better even when going up-hill. The small chinese made electric vehicles in this class I have test-driven tend to cost $12,000 or more and can only do 25 mph (due to legal restrictions) and maybe 15 mph if going up a hill. They would also need to have air-conditioning and other nice features people expect.

I believe this goal could be achieved, but I think it will be many years before it could happen. First people have to accept the idea of electric cars. The Leaf and Volt will help make that possible. Then the price has to come down and infrastructure has to develop. Once those things happen, I think we may see lots of smaller, cheaper electric cars driving around on the streets.

Then back to the original quote, as far as small sports cars.. Yes, once the EV market matures, then there will be enough customers to buy a niche product like a sports car. Right now they have to make the cars appeal to the broadest audience possible.

Click to expand...

If the Think were mass produced it would be affordable and it is a safe, high speed, long range vehicle. I owned one and even the original was great, I loved that car!

"The NiMH were a bridge battery that were never used even though Toyota tried."

The NiMH battery was used in the RAV4 EV which hundreds are still now being driven everyday. Some of the RAV4 have as many as 150,000 miles on them.

The second generation Ovonics were used in the EV1 and had a cycle life of 600 with 80% DOD. Ovonics improved the NiMH to 1800 cycles before removing the information from their web site. An EV1 with these 1800 cycle Ovonic modules would have well over 200,000 miles before range would start to fall off. Based on this I would not call the NiMH a bridge battery. It had the ability to power EVs for most local driving. I have gone over 60,000 miles with the Ovonics second generation in an OEM S-10 since 2004.

We will never know what the EV1 could have done because they were all taken away from the drivers and crushed. Then GM sold their rights to the company that held the patent to the NiMH battery to Texaco who became part of Chevron.

So to make a short story longer if we had used the NiMH battery we might not be in as bad a mess as were into now.

Once the threat from electric vehicles was under control gas prices went from around 1.25 a gallon to 4.00 a gallon over a period of a few short years. This of course produced the record level of profits ever made by any corporation in the history of the United States. All at the expense of the drivers at the pumps. If the housing market had not collapsed it would have only been a matter of time before the United States would have been in a depression. People were having to make choices to either fill up their SUV or cut their spending in other places.

I am in a business that is dependent on miles driven. The pending depression was already happening in 2007 and before depending on the cost of gas. No one was paying attention to the vast amount of money that was not going back into our economy. The good times were fueled with borrowed money and many were living on the edge.